Guest Frank Posted September 2, 2010 at 04:58 AM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 04:58 AM I'm wondering if anyone can answer this complicated question (or several questions, actually):I've been a member of a government organization for six years, and served for 4 years as an officer (president, speaker (twice), secretary). Membership is attained by gaining 50 signatures, which must be validated before membership is certified. This year, I was late in attaining signatures, and turned in my petition the morning of our first meeting. It was first validated before our scheduled orientation meeting at 6:00 p.m., but had not been second validated yet. That meeting ended at 6:30, and before the next meeting began at 7:00, it was second validated and certified, making me, once again, a member (I did attend the orientation meeting regardless and observed from the side of the room).The regular 7:00 p.m. meeting then began, and I was told my membership had been certified and my name was called in roll call, to which I replied that I was present, and I fully participated as a member for more than 3 hours, including making motions, speaking on a number of issues, and voting.On the last issue of the meeting, at 10:00, I objected to the appointment of a someone to a committee, causing a debate. A roll call vote was asked for, and when roll was called, my name was skipped. I asked why, and was told I could not vote, due to a By-Laws provision, which reads, "Petitioners who file during subsequent filing period, upon validation, should be contacted one (1) hour, if possible, before scheduled meeting or special meeting so that they can observe that night's meeting. Their first official meeting will be the next scheduled meeting or at a special meeting."I inquired as to why I had been allowed to vote and participate to that point, and was told that the speaker and clerk had made a mistake. I knew that once a violation of By-Laws had been discovered, it could not knowingly continue, but out of frustration, I challenged the speaker's ruling anyway. I was ruled out of order, as I was not at that time a member (which was what I was disputing...), so another member challenged the speaker's ruling on my behalf and yielded me the floor so I could make my argument.I ultimately did not win the challenge (though several members sided with me), and sat the remaining 10 minutes of the meeting off to the side of the room with the media. But at the meeting's final roll call, I was astounded that when they got to where my name should be, the chair and clerk paused, whispered to each other, then called my name! I declined to answer present, and instead exclaimed "how could I be counted in roll if a ruling was just made that I am not presently a member?!), but I was shouted down.In retrospect, I probably would have been better off not challenging the chair to begin with and expressing my frustration after the meeting, but it seems to me that a lot of what happened was wrong. There was discussion during all of this whether any of the votes that we had taken that I participated in - including motions I had made, amended, and seconded - earlier in the evening should be redone or not. After I lost my challenge, they went ahead and took a vote on the motion I had objected to in the first place (the committee appointment), without me voting (if I hadn't had made the objection, it would have passed by unanimous consent, so should they have continued as they did?).The whole situation had many people confused, and frankly we can't figure out via Robert's Rules of Order or our Bylaws and parliamentary procedure policies what was right, what was wrong, and where actions taken earlier in that night should stand (and how the minutes should reflect it all, particularly the attendance roll calls at the beginning and end of the meeting that each called my name).Can anyone shed light on this matter?Thank you,Frank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted September 2, 2010 at 05:50 AM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 05:50 AM I'm wondering if anyone can answer this complicated question (or several questions, actually):I've been a member of a government organization for six years, and served for 4 years as an officer (president, speaker (twice), secretary). ...Can anyone shed light on this matter?Thank you,FrankYou've been a member of this organization for six years, and an officer for four; you were at the meeting; and yet you're confused and can't figure things out.We haven't read your bylaws (except one inscrutable excerpt), are not members of this organization, and weren't at the meeting.So, probably no -- we cannot shed light on this matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Goldsworthy Posted September 2, 2010 at 05:53 AM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 05:53 AM I've been a member of a government organization for six years, and served for 4 years as an officer (president, speaker (twice), secretary).Are you a member of this organization, or not?The text which follows suggests that you are not a member.How can that be?Membership is attained by gaining 50 signatures, which must be validated before membership is certified.This year, I was late in attaining signatures, and turned in my petition the morning of our first meeting.It was first validated before our scheduled orientation meeting at 6:00 p.m., but had not been second validated yet. That meeting ended at 6:30, and before the next meeting began at 7:00, it was second validated and certified, making me, once again, a member (I did attend the orientation meeting regardless and observed from the side of the room).The regular 7:00 p.m. meeting then began, and I was told my membership had been certified and my name was called in roll call, to which I replied that I was present, and I fully participated as a member for more than 3 hours, including making motions, speaking on a number of issues, and voting.On the last issue of the meeting, at 10:00, I objected to the appointment of a someone to a committee, causing a debate. A roll call vote was asked for, and when roll was called, my name was skipped. I asked why, and was told I could not vote, due to a By-Laws provision, which reads, "Petitioners who file during subsequent filing period, upon validation, should be contacted one (1) hour, if possible, before scheduled meeting or special meeting so that they can observe that night's meeting. Their first official meeting will be the next scheduled meeting or at a special meeting."I inquired as to why I had been allowed to vote and participate to that point, and was told that the speaker and clerk had made a mistake. I knew that once a violation of By-Laws had been discovered, it could not knowingly continue, but out of frustration, I challenged the speaker's ruling anyway. I was ruled out of order, as I was not at that time a member (which was what I was disputing...), so another member challenged the speaker's ruling on my behalf and yielded me the floor so I could make my argument.I ultimately did not win the challenge (though several members sided with me), and sat the remaining 10 minutes of the meeting off to the side of the room with the media. But at the meeting's final roll call, I was astounded that when they got to where my name should be, the chair and clerk paused, whispered to each other, then called my name! I declined to answer present, and instead exclaimed "how could I be counted in roll if a ruling was just made that I am not presently a member?!), but I was shouted down.In retrospect, I probably would have been better off not challenging the chair to begin with and expressing my frustration after the meeting, but it seems to me that a lot of what happened was wrong. There was discussion during all of this whether any of the votes that we had taken that I participated in - including motions I had made, amended, and seconded - earlier in the evening should be redone or not. After I lost my challenge, they went ahead and took a vote on the motion I had objected to in the first place (the committee appointment), without me voting (if I hadn't had made the objection, it would have passed by unanimous consent, so should they have continued as they did?).The whole situation had many people confused, and frankly we can't figure out via Robert's Rules of Order or our Bylaws and parliamentary procedure policies what was right, what was wrong, and where actions taken earlier in that night should stand (and how the minutes should reflect it all, particularly the attendance roll calls at the beginning and end of the meeting that each called my name).My impression is that your question is, "Have I/we complied with our bylaws' unique procedure for acknowledging new members?"I don't see a question about Robert's Rules of Order anywhere. - How one becomes a member is ALWAYS a customized process; there is NO default process in Robert's Rules regarding "how to become a member." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted September 2, 2010 at 09:43 AM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 09:43 AM You've been a member of this organization for six years, and an officer for four; you were at the meeting; and yet you're confused and can't figure things out.We haven't read your bylaws (except one inscrutable excerpt), are not members of this organization, and weren't at the meeting.So, probably no -- we cannot shed light on this matter.I have to agree that the answer to the question that was (finally!) asked is, probably, "No". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frank Posted September 2, 2010 at 03:28 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 03:28 PM Well, that doesn't really answer my question at all - I challenged the chair's ruling that I was not a member at that time, but was then not allowed to vote or participate in the debate thereof. My question pertains to whether or not Robert's Rules says anything about my rights to debate/speak at that moment, as I had been considered a member to that point in the meeting, and the very ruling I was challenging was whether or not I was a member.And secondly, I am unable to find a provision in Robert's Rules that deals with a situation like this - what happens if a meeting of a society begins with someone being a member, but then it is discovered later in that meeting that the person is not a member - how should the minutes reflect that and are the actions the society made in that meeting impacted in any way?I believe those are legitimate (though rare) procedural questions that have nothing to do with our by-laws/membership procedure (which I am not asking for assistance on). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted September 2, 2010 at 03:45 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 03:45 PM My question pertains to whether or not Robert's Rules says anything about my rights to debate/speak at that moment, as I had been considered a member to that point in the meeting, and the very ruling I was challenging was whether or not I was a member.At any given point in time you're either a member or you're not. If you started out as a member, then you remain a member until you're not.what happens if a meeting of a society begins with someone being a member, but then it is discovered later in that meeting that the person is not a member - how should the minutes reflect that and are the actions the society made in that meeting impacted in any way?The minutes might state that a point of order was raised to the effect that John Doe was not a member. The chair ruled the point of order well taken. The chair's ruling was appealed and sustained.The only other impact might be if the loss of one member resulted a loss of quorum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted September 2, 2010 at 06:45 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 06:45 PM The only other impact might be if the loss of one member resulted a loss of quorum.Or if any of the motions were adopted by a margin of one vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted September 2, 2010 at 06:50 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 06:50 PM Or if any of the motions were adopted by a margin of one vote.Perhaps. Or perhaps he was a member up until the point he was declared not to be a member, in which case his prior votes would be legitimate.Much as an officer who is declared ineligible serves until that fact is officially established.I'm inclined to think that the ineligible member/officer never was a member/officer but I think that position has been argued out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted September 2, 2010 at 06:54 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 06:54 PM Or if any of the motions were adopted by a margin of one vote.Or perhaps lost due to a tie?Well, that doesn't really answer my question at all -....I'm reminded of a Benny Hill skit. Benny, as irascible game show host, Little Jackie Wright as the beleaguered contestant (against a younger, handsomer opponent) receiving all the tough questions.Benny: 1,517 people died in the sinking of the Titanic. Can you name them all?Jackie: No, and that's a correct answer.(laughter and applause, Benny makes face , Jackie gets 5 points)(Edited to correct spelling of Wright) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted September 2, 2010 at 07:00 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 07:00 PM Perhaps. Or perhaps he was a member up until the point he was declared not to be a member, in which case his prior votes would be legitimate.Although the danger with using that argument is if the Chair wants to take over the organization he could simply rule that all of the members (excepting his cronies) are not valid members and they would not have the standing to Appeal the ruling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted September 2, 2010 at 10:12 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 10:12 PM I'm reminded of a Benny Hill skit. He is a horribly underrated genius. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:14 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:14 PM I'm wondering if anyone can answer this complicated question (or several questions, actually): This year, I was late in attaining signatures, and turned in my petition the morning of our first meeting. It was first validated before our scheduled orientation meeting at 6:00 p.m., but had not been second validated yet. That meeting ended at 6:30, and before the next meeting began at 7:00, it was second validated and certified,You haven't stated any rules of your organization that would explain any of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:15 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:15 PM A roll call vote was asked for, This motion requires a second and a majority vote. It's not a request. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:17 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:17 PM I inquired as to why I had been allowed to vote and participate to that point, and was told that the speaker and clerk had made a mistake. I knew that once a violation of By-Laws had been discovered, it could not knowingly continue, but out of frustration, I challenged the speaker's ruling anyway. I was ruled out of order, as I was not at that time a member (which was what I was disputing...),It's up to your organization to interpret your bylaws, but I don't see anything in the bylaw text you quoted that indicates one way or the other your membership status. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:17 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:17 PM so another member challenged the speaker's ruling on my behalfThe appeal should be from two members -- one making the appeal and the other seconding it, but that's of no concern, now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:17 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:17 PM and yielded me the floor so I could make my argument.A member cannot hand their debate time over to another, and a nonmember cannot speak in debate without a suspension of the rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:18 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:18 PM I ultimately did not win the challenge (though several members sided with me), and sat the remaining 10 minutes of the meeting off to the side of the room with the media. But at the meeting's final roll call, I was astounded that when they got to where my name should be, the chair and clerk paused, whispered to each other, then called my name! I declined to answer present, and instead exclaimed "how could I be counted in roll if a ruling was just made that I am not presently a member?!), but I was shouted down.It's unclear if your rules dictate that a person in your position would or would not be included in the roll call. You have a custom rule in the bylaws, where it seems a person can have a right to attend a meeting without participating, and it is unclear to what extent that person is a member. In retrospect, I probably would have been better off not challenging the chair to begin with and expressing my frustration after the meeting, but it seems to me that a lot of what happened was wrong. There was discussion during all of this whether any of the votes that we had taken that I participated in - including motions I had made, amended, and seconded - earlier in the evening should be redone or not.After the motions were before the assembly, I don't see that it matters who introduced them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:18 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:18 PM After I lost my challenge, they went ahead and took a vote on the motion I had objected to in the first place (the committee appointment), without me voting (if I hadn't had made the objection, it would have passed by unanimous consent, so should they have continued as they did?).There is no harm in the chair putting the question to a vote. You're reaching, to insinuate otherwise. The whole situation had many people confused, and frankly we can't figure out via Robert's Rules of Order or our Bylaws and parliamentary procedure policies what was right, what was wrong, and where actions taken earlier in that night should standThe motions stand, until a point of order is raised, at which time they will be handled on a case by case basis, ruled on by the chair and, if needed, by the assembly. (and how the minutes should reflect it all, particularly the attendance roll calls at the beginning and end of the meeting that each called my name).The minutes should accurately reflect what was done, without personal commentary or opinion. The roll call should be easy to log in the minutes. I don't see your confusion with it. You say the first and last were "attendance roll calls." You were in attendance, and your attendance at the meeting is provided for in the excerpt of the bylaws you posted here. The roll call in the middle was a roll call vote. If it has been ruled that you can't vote, why would your name be called during a vote, and why would the omission of your name there have a bearing on your attendance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:30 PM Report Share Posted September 2, 2010 at 11:30 PM Or perhaps lost due to a tie?If the motion was defeated, it can simply be made again at the next session. No need to jump through parliamentary hoops for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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