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approving revisions in minutes


Guest Joyce Gray

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For a small group (12 and under), is it correct procedure to ask for a show of hands to approve a change in minutes or must there be a motion and 2nd.

This is assuming the revision has been read aloud to the group.

Neither.

If you follow the recommendation of RONR, you don't vote at all.

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Neither.

If you follow the recommendation of RONR, you don't vote at all.

Please forgive me but I'm new to all this. What is RONR exactly? I have a member of the group saying that there absolutely must be a motion and a 2nd. I told her that was true for BYLAWS perhaps but for an informal group of 12 women, that was not necessary. I need a logical way to rebut this so she will quit complaining.

Thanks in advance for your help.

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What is RONR exactly?

RONR is the abbreviation for Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised and refers to the current, 10th, edition.

Mr. Goldsworthy may have confused "changing" (i.e. correcting or amending) the minutes with approving them. In the latter case, as he indicates, there should be no vote.

Corrections to the minutes prior to their approval are often achieved by unanimous consent but a motion, second, debate, and (majority) vote are not out of order. Amending minutes after they've been approved can be accomplished by adopting a motion to amend something previously adopted (ASPA). This motion requires a second, is debatable, and can be adopted by a two-thirds vote, a majority vote with previous notice, or the vote of a majority of the (entire) membership.

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Please forgive me but I'm new to all this. What is RONR exactly? I have a member of the group saying that there absolutely must be a motion and a 2nd. I told her that was true for BYLAWS perhaps but for an informal group of 12 women, that was not necessary. I need a logical way to rebut this so she will quit complaining.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Ask her to cite a reference for her stand. She won't find one in RONR. Perhaps buy her RONRIB (Robert's Rules In Brief) and she can read that in a short time.

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Neither.

If you follow the recommendation of RONR, you don't vote at all.

While Kim has given an accurate condensed answer, here is a slightly longer view:

RONR states that corrections or changes to the Minutes are generally done by unanimous consent. However, if there is a contention as to whether or not the change/correction is correct, a vote to approve the Minutes may be taken. RONR pg. 343 lines 18-28.

Also, the Minutes are generally accepted by unanimous consent - the Chair will ask the Secretary to read the Minutes, then asks for corrections/changes, and then can state the the Minutes are accepted if no one objects. But RONR does state that a vote to approve the Minutes is not out of order.

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I think there's something here, although I am sans livre today, so my citation may be off a line. RONR (10th Ed.) p. 343 ll. 19-22

While RONR states that a formal motion to approve the minutes is not out of order, it never states, or even suggests, that a vote to approve the minutes is appropriate. And if you don't believe me, just wait for Mr. Elsman to stop by.

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While RONR states that a formal motion to approve the minutes is not out of order, it never states, or even suggests, that a vote to approve the minutes is appropriate. And if you don't believe me, just wait for Mr. Elsman to stop by.

Well, as of now RONR may be said to suggest that a vote to approve the minutes is not inappropriate, since the tables (tinted pp. 18-19) note that a majority vote is required for adoption.

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While RONR states that a formal motion to approve the minutes is not out of order, it never states, or even suggests, that a vote to approve the minutes is appropriate. And if you don't believe me, just wait for Mr. Elsman to stop by.

By stating that something is not "out of order" that means that it is permissable. Plain and simple.

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Ask her to cite a reference for her stand. She won't find one in RONR. Perhaps buy her RONRIB (Robert's Rules In Brief) and she can read that in a short time.

In the minutes that I published, I included an attachment with all the changes we approved unanimously with a show of hands (8 of 12 at the meeting). Should I show strikethroughs for the things that were revised and should I read the minutes at the next meeting for approval. Also, should I substitute the word amend for revise in order to be correct?

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In the minutes that I published, I included an attachment with all the changes we approved unanimously with a show of hands (8 of 12 at the meeting). Should I show strikethroughs for the things that were revised and should I read the minutes at the next meeting for approval. Also, should I substitute the word amend for revise in order to be correct?

I assume that by "published" you're referring to draft minutes that were distributed to the members but not yet approved? Or are you referring to minutes that had been approved and were later amended?

You might want to take a look at the sample minutes in RONR but you shouldn't strike through anything. And motions belong in the minutes, not "attached" to them. And no need to record that the vote was unanimous, just whether the motion was adopted or lost (unless it was a counted vote).

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I assume that by "published" you're referring to draft minutes that were distributed to the members but not yet approved? Or are you referring to minutes that had been approved and were later amended?

You might want to take a look at the sample minutes in RONR but you shouldn't strike through anything. And motions belong in the minutes, not "attached" to them. And no need to record that the vote was unanimous, just whether the motion was adopted or lost (unless it was a counted vote).

There were no motions made. May I have a show of hands for all who agree with this amendment? The minutes I sent have not been approved by the group. I will eliminate the attachment and put the amendments in the text of the minutes which have been distributed and hand the new document out at our October meeting for approval. That should solve the problem. Then we can make a motion to accept the minutes. I'll take a look at the sample minutes as you suggested. And thanks for your time.

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But RONR never states that voting to approve the minutes is not out of order (although, as Mr. Honemann just noted, it seems to suggest that it's not inappropriate).

It is not out of order to vote on the approval of the minutes. If it was, I doubt RONR would note the vote required. It is, however, rather silly and unnecessary to vote on the approval of the minutes, and taking a formal vote on the subject is a sign of an inexperienced chair.

May I have a show of hands for all who agree with this amendment?

Corrections to the minutes are generally handled by unanimous consent - simply ask if anyone objects to the correction. If someone does object, then a formal vote should be taken. A vote by show of hands is appropriate in small assemblies.

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Let me clarify what I was asking in the beginning. It's obvious all of you are experts in this and I confess I am NOT.

As a facilitator for our annual book club meeting (12 members, 8 present), I presented amendments to several different items contained within minutes from 2004 - 2010, for purposes of cleaning up the phrasing and writing something more succinct. Each item was discussed and approved by a unanimous vote or show of hands. I distributed the minutes along with an attachment (same document we worked from when amending) showing the changes we approved in italics/red print and simply removed the text that had been eliminated. Should I have used strikethroughs for this rather than italics/red print? A member who was absent said that I did this incorrectly and that I should have shown a motion and 2nd for each item....

...The wording was inflammatory and unclear because the women recording the minutes in the past weren't very thorough and didn't understand how to state things positively. Everyone wanted the changes and I was designated to handle them so I didn't force any of this on anyone. I would have been ashamed for anyone to see them otherwise.

...Debate and discussion doesn't belong in the minutes (which, as we always say, are a record of what is done, not what is said) but once it's in there, it's in there for good. If approved minutes are amended, that fact is recorded in the minutes of the meeting at which they're amended, not in the minutes of the original meeting (though you can place a note in the margins to that effect). Even in the extreme case of adopting a motion to "rescind and expunge" (which should only be used to express displeasure with an action, not to clean up the text), the original text remains legible. So what the group wanted to do was, essentially, impossible.

Corrections to the minutes are generally handled by unanimous consent - simply ask if anyone objects to the correction. If someone does object, then a formal vote should be taken. A vote by show of hands is appropriate in small assemblies.

The first three quotes are from Ms. Gray's other thread, which seemed to make it clear she was not talking about corrections to the minutes (in the sense of Mr. Martin's answer). Mr. Mountcastle's final comment seems like a good wrap-up, IMO.

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But stay tuned, and in the meantime be content with the understanding that it is a very bad idea. smile.gif

...and, in the meantime, if I'm in the chair, a formal motion to approve the minutes will be handled by the regular procedure in the same way as it would if a formal motion had not been made. The fact remains that the only way not to approve the minutes read by the secretary is to approve a corrected version. In other words, a formal motion is not out of order, but its making does not change the procedure used to approve the minutes after any corrections have been handled.

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