Vice President

[Guest G Petersen]

I know that RRONR stated that in the case of the President resigning, the VP moves up automatically to the Pres position. I read and studied RRONR that the VP can "disqualify" him/herself from moving up if the VP feels that can't meet the obligations and duties as Pres. Am I correct?

[hmtcastle]

I read and studied RRONR that the VP can "disqualify" him/herself from moving up if the VP feels that can't meet the obligations and duties as Pres. Am I correct?

No.

[Guest G Petersen]

Wow, this means this VP has to move up to Pres role whether he/she likes it or not. Its like forcing the VP to move.

[George Mervosh]

Wow, this means this VP has to move up to Pres role whether he/she likes it or not. Its like forcing the VP to move.

Correct. He shouldn't have taken the job if he wasn't prepared for it.

[Chris Harrison]

No.

...And given that one of the major duties is to move up to become President if there is a vacancy the person should never have accepted the office of VP if he wasn't up for the job.

[Chris Harrison]

Wow, this means this VP has to move up to Pres role whether he/she likes it or not. Its like forcing the VP to move.

That is his job. Anyone who takes the position had better be ready to perform his duties and step up if need be. A VP thinking that he doesn't need to move up is being absurd (after all the name is VICE President).

[hmtcastle]

(after all the name is VICE President).

vice-

prefix meaning "instead of, in place of," 15c., from L. vice "in place of," ablative of vicis "change, turn, office" (see vicarious).

[Guest G Petersen]

Ok, why was the phrase "VP can disqualify" mentioned in page 436 of RRONR? I found this and discussed with my board. So what does this phrase actually mean then?

[hmtcastle]

Ok, why was the phrase "VP can disqualify" mentioned in page 436 of RRONR? I found this and discussed with my board. So what does this phrase actually mean then?

That refers to disqualifying oneself from presiding at a particular time during a meeting, not disqualifying oneself from assuming the office.

[Rev Ed]

I think this can be a common problem - the Vice President postion can become, at times if for several years the oranization does not have a President whose position becomes vacant for one reason or another, nothing more than an easy, and ceremonial, position. If a candidate has never been in an organization where the President resigned midterm, then the candidate may asume the he/she will not have to become President if the position becomes vacant.

My suggestion is to make the Vice President's position more than that of a "sit and wait" position - the Vice President could be obligated, for example, to chair a major Committee and/or to have actual responsibilities of some sort. My experience is that the Vice President position tends to have little actual responsibility.

[hmtcastle]

My experience is that the Vice President position tends to have little actual responsibility.

Or, as John Nance Garner famously put it, "not worth a bucket of warm piss".

[Guest dan]

Another way to address this issue, depending on the nature of your organization, is to have your bylaws provide a procedure/process for filling a vacancy in the office of President.

[hmtcastle]

Another way to address this issue, depending on the nature of your organization, is to have your bylaws provide a procedure/process for filling a vacancy in the office of President.

I suspect they already do.

[Guest G Petersen]

Yes my orgainzation does have a vacancy clause - in case of a resignation of any elected officer, the Executive board shall advertise the vacancy to the members and accept nominations in a given time frame. The Executive board shall make the final selection to fill the vacant position to finish the term. Right now, the Executive board is dealing with this problem I mentioned above. Some board members are saying that the VP MUST move up to assume the Pres then declare VP as vacant and advertise. Some other board members including myself disagreed with that as our bylaws clearyly stated that if the President resigns, then we as Executive board advertise the vacancy of Pres. Any advice or expert interpretation would be appreciated.

[Rob Elsman]

Yes my orgainzation does have a vacancy clause - in case of a resignation of any elected officer, the Executive board shall advertise the vacancy to the members and accept nominations in a given time frame. The Executive board shall make the final selection to fill the vacant position to finish the term. Right now, the Executive board is dealing with this problem I mentioned above. Some board members are saying that the VP MUST move up to assume the Pres then declare VP as vacant and advertise. Some other board members including myself disagreed with that as our bylaws clearyly stated that if the President resigns, then we as Executive board advertise the vacancy of Pres. Any advice or expert interpretation would be appreciated.

I think you've answered your own question. From what you say, "...the Executive board shall advertise the vacancy to the members and accept nominations in a given time frame. The Executive board shall make the final selection to fill the vacant position to finish the term."

[David A Foulkes]

I think you've answered your own question. From what you say, "...the Executive board shall advertise the vacancy to the members and accept nominations in a given time frame. The Executive board shall make the final selection to fill the vacant position to finish the term."

Would page 557 lines 19-26 play in here though? It seems that regarding the vacancy of the office of president, it must clearly and specifically spell out the process as it applies to that office "in particular", otherwise the VP ascends to the throne.

This assumes of course that our guest, G Peterson, is quoting bylaws, and not just paraphrasing.

Yes my orgainzation does have a vacancy clause - in case of a resignation of any elected officer......... our bylaws clearyly stated that if the President resigns.....

You see, G, what you typed here - "in case of a resignation of any elected officer..." isn't the same as "clearly stated that if the President resigns...". Know what I'm saying?

[Rob Elsman]

Would page 557 lines 19-26 play in here though? It seems that regarding the vacancy of the office of president, it must clearly and specifically spell out the process as it applies to that office "in particular", otherwise the VP ascends to the throne.

This assumes of course that our guest, G Peterson, is quoting bylaws, and not just paraphrasing.

You see, G, what you typed here - "in case of a resignation of any elected officer..." isn't the same as "clearly stated that if the President resigns...". Know what I'm saying?

Your point is well-taken, Mr. Foulkes, but I think "...in case of a resignation of any elected officer..." is unambiguously clear.

[David A Foulkes]

Your point is well-taken, Mr. Foulkes, but I think "...in case of a resignation of any elected officer..." is unambiguously clear.

I would certainly be inclined to agree. As well I know how ill-advised it is to go a second round with you however Mr. Elsman, I'll only point out that (from my cited example) if "the bylaws are silent as to the method of filling a vacancy in the specific case of the presidency..." (emphasis added)

I think there's a certain lack of unambiguous clarity in the poster's bylaw reference, and what RONR states, between "any elected officer" and one specifically referred to by title in this special case.

That said, I'll not return to this horse further. Off to my corner for some styptic pencil and a toweling.

[Josh Martin]

My experience is that the Vice President position tends to have little actual responsibility.

My experience has been the opposite. Organizations I've been a part of have often given duties they aren't sure where to put on the VP, since the VP has so few parliamentary duties. This often means that the position is so different from the Presidency that someone highly qualified to be Vice President may not be qualified to be President. It also makes the VP a very busy position.

As for the issue of succession, we don't interpret Bylaws here, but Mr. Foulkes' interpretation of RONR seems accurate to me. If the automatic succession does come into play, one solution would be for the VP to resign from the Presidency. Both positions would then certainly fall under the vacancy-filling clause in the Bylaws, and the board could elect whoever they wanted for President and restore the VP to his original position.