Recording the count of a vote in the minutes

[Guest celia]

Is it improper to record in the Official Minutes of the board meeting, the number of votes for and against a motion when the vote is taken? Or do you just record passed or failed? We have recently started to record the actual count.One board member has challenged that by saying, we are only to record passed or failed. Is there a proper way to do this? Does Robert's Rules have anything to say about this?

[Larry Cisar]

Is it improper to record in the Official Minutes of the board meeting, the number of votes for and against a motion when the vote is taken? Or do you just record passed or failed? We have recently started to record the actual count.One board member has challenged that by saying, we are only to record passed or failed. Is there a proper way to do this? Does Robert's Rules have anything to say about this?

If the vote is counted, you record the count. If the vote is not counted, then no count is recorded. If you vote by a voice vote, only whether it has passed or not is recorded. If you don't count the standing vote (and you do not have to count), then only whether is has passed or not is recorded. Very simple.

[Kim Goldsworthy]

Is it improper to record in the Official Minutes of the board meeting, the number of votes for and against a motion when the vote is taken?

It depends.

Or do you just record passed or failed?

Well, you ALWAYS do that, don't you?

We have recently started to record the actual count.

Ah! So you really, truly COUNT the raised hands or the standing bodies?

One board member has challenged that by saying, we are only to record passed or failed.

By default, you vote by VOICE and have no choice but to record ONLY the fact that the motion passed or failed.

Is there a proper way to do this?

Does Robert's Rules have anything to say about this?

Since the proper default method of voting, per The Book, is a VOICE VOTE, then, technically, it would impossible to "count" a voice vote, and therefore impossible to record the NUMBER in the minutes.

According to The Book, if the vote is merely (a.) by raised hands; or, (b.) by rising, then you do NOT count, and thus do NOT record the NUMBER.

If the vote is a COUNTED vote (by any method), then indeed you do record the NUMBER.

So, it depends on the METHOD OF VOTING you are doing, and especially, if it is a formal counted vote.

Q. Is your body a convention of 1,000? or a board of 6?

(The smaller the body, the easier it is to count in a blink of an eye with 100% accuracy, without even trying.)

[hmtcastle]

If the vote is counted, you record the count. If the vote is not counted, then no count is recorded.

Well, a vote might be counted without it being an (ordered) "counted vote". With ten members voting by rising (or raising their hands), it would be natural for the chair (and everyone else) to, informally, count the votes, though this would not necessarily constitute a "counted vote".

[Trina]

Is it improper to record in the Official Minutes of the board meeting, the number of votes for and against a motion when the vote is taken? Or do you just record passed or failed? We have recently started to record the actual count....

If the vote is counted, you record the count. If the vote is not counted, then no count is recorded. If you vote by a voice vote, only whether it has passed or not is recorded. If you don't count the standing vote (and you do not have to count), then only whether is has passed or not is recorded. Very simple.

....

By default, you vote by VOICE and have no choice but to record ONLY the fact that the motion passed or failed.

....

(The smaller the body, the easier it is to count in a blink of an eye with 100% accuracy, without even trying.)

Just to clarify, the key thing is whether the assembly made a decision to vote in manner which includes counting the vote. Just because some individual in the assembly counted the vote (maybe it's a small group, and counting is easy to do, as Mr. Goldsworthy mentions), that does not mean the count should be recorded. For example, I belong to one organization whose board meetings include less than a dozen members, and we customarily vote by show of hands. As secretary, it would be simple for me to count and record the number of hands up, without even causing any delay in the proceedings. However, even if I did count the vote, that alone would not make it proper for me to start recording the vote counts.

[Dan Honemann]

Just to clarify, the key thing is whether the assembly made a decision to vote in manner which includes counting the vote. Just because some individual in the assembly counted the vote (maybe it's a small group, and counting is easy to do, as Mr. Goldsworthy mentions), that does not mean the count should be recorded. For example, I belong to one organization whose board meetings include less than a dozen members, and we customarily vote by show of hands. As secretary, it would be simple for me to count and record the number of hands up, without even causing any delay in the proceedings. However, even if I did count the vote, that alone would not make it proper for me to start recording the vote counts.

But I assume you also record the vote count when the chair orders a count on his own initiative.

[Trina]

But I assume you also record the vote count when the chair orders a count on his own initiative.

Yes. I guess I was answering in the context of the original post, as I understood it.

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We have recently started to record the actual count.

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Perhaps it would be helpful if the original poster clarified this statement -- i.e. exactly how, and by whom, was this decision to record the count made?

[Guest celia]

Our board consists of 12 board members. We started a new fiscal year in July, after an election, with a new board. Our new board disscussed the idea of recording the vote count in our minutes whenever we vote on any thing. We never voted on it we just agreed to do it. One member was absent from that meeting. I think that the absent board member is the one that is objecting. I have been told of the objection but the person objecting has not been identified to me.We vote by raised hands. Do we need to vote on wether we can record the count in the minutes?

[Kim Goldsworthy]

Our board consists of 12 board members.

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Our new board disscussed the idea of recording the vote count in our minutes whenever we vote on any thing.

...

We never voted on it we just agreed to do it.

...

We vote by raised hands.

Q. Do we need to vote on whether we can record the count in the minutes?

• Your body consists of 12, and you vote by raised hands.

That implies that there is no doubt at any time of the number of votes on both sides. Good. So that is not factor (viz., the vagueness of the numbers).

***

"We never voted on it we just agreed to do it."

Well, if that method is NOW a TRADITION or CUSTOM, then you ought to follow your agreed upon precedent, even if you've never adopted that custom/tradition by a formal vote.

To paraphrase Thomas Jefferson:

"It is more important that there be a rule to go by, than that the rule is the best rule, so that you avoid the capriciousness [whim] of the chairman and the captiousness [argumentativeness] of the members."

And:

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

-anonymous

[Josh Martin]

Our board consists of 12 board members. We started a new fiscal year in July, after an election, with a new board. Our new board disscussed the idea of recording the vote count in our minutes whenever we vote on any thing. We never voted on it we just agreed to do it. One member was absent from that meeting. I think that the absent board member is the one that is objecting. I have been told of the objection but the person objecting has not been identified to me.We vote by raised hands. Do we need to vote on wether we can record the count in the minutes?

I see no need for any further action on the matter. It seems clear that the board has agreed, by unanimous consent, that all votes shall be counted, and the chair appears to have followed through on the board's direction. The count should be recorded in the minutes.