Point of Order

[Guest Bob Matlock]

I am going to a very important meeting this Nov.30 - Dec. 1. The president is running for a second 2 year term. He finished the previous president's term of 1 year due to that president's illness in 2006. The current president was elected for a two year term for 2007 and 2008. He ran again and was elected to fill the slot for 2009 and 2010. Our Bylaws state that the president cannot run for more than 2 consecutive terms. At our General Assembly on Dec. 1 he has on the agenda, before any voting for officers takes place, that there will be a show of hands vote to waive the two term restriction. This waivber is OK by our bylaws. The problems I have are: Our Bylaws have no provision for taking a show-of-hands vote. But, our Bylaws do state that in all cases that are not specifically covered by these Bylaws shall be governed by Roberts' Rules of Order. My interpretation of Roberts' is that. a show -of-hands vote is generally held for small groups where individuals can see each other. Our voting "Group" is going to be between 60 and 75 who will be sitting around tables. Not a small group in my estimation. Based on our Bylaws and the verbage from Roberts'I intend to call for a point of order and challenge the agenda and the motion,as soon as the president announces that he will call for a show-of-hands vote on the waiver or at the time a motion is presented to do the vote. I realize that I can appeal if he decides to go on with the vote. He could hold a "stand & sit" vote but I bdelieve he would still be violating the small group. I'm not sure if he nor anyone on his Board of Directors has a clue about proper parlimentarian proceedures. There will be a guest judge and I assume several lawyers sitting around who might vounteer to help him out.

My questions to you are: Can he legally hold the "show-of-hands vote? What are my alternatives if he ignores me and proceeds with the agenda and the "show-of-hands" vote?

[Gary Novosielski]

I am going to a very important meeting this Nov.30 - Dec. 1. The president is running for a second 2 year term. He finished the previous president's term of 1 year due to that president's illness in 2006. The current president was elected for a two year term for 2007 and 2008. He ran again and was elected to fill the slot for 2009 and 2010. Our Bylaws state that the president cannot run for more than 2 consecutive terms. At our General Assembly on Dec. 1 he has on the agenda, before any voting for officers takes place, that there will be a show of hands vote to waive the two term restriction. This waivber is OK by our bylaws. The problems I have are: Our Bylaws have no provision for taking a show-of-hands vote. But, our Bylaws do state that in all cases that are not specifically covered by these Bylaws shall be governed by Roberts' Rules of Order. My interpretation of Roberts' is that. a show -of-hands vote is generally held for small groups where individuals can see each other. Our voting "Group" is going to be between 60 and 75 who will be sitting around tables. Not a small group in my estimation. Based on our Bylaws and the verbage from Roberts'I intend to call for a point of order and challenge the agenda and the motion,as soon as the president announces that he will call for a show-of-hands vote on the waiver or at the time a motion is presented to do the vote. I realize that I can appeal if he decides to go on with the vote. He could hold a "stand & sit" vote but I bdelieve he would still be violating the small group. I'm not sure if he nor anyone on his Board of Directors has a clue about proper parlimentarian proceedures. There will be a guest judge and I assume several lawyers sitting around who might vounteer to help him out.

My questions to you are: Can he legally hold the "show-of-hands vote? What are my alternatives if he ignores me and proceeds with the agenda and the "show-of-hands" vote?

What do your bylaws actually say about this waiver? Do they provide that a particular voting method must be used? If not, then any voting method that the assembly approves of, by vote or by unanimous consent, can be used. RONR does recommend using a show of hands only in smaller groups, but a "rising" vote (stand and sit) is appropriate in larger groups. I don't think a point of order is the way to go on this.

What voting method would you like to use? And why don't you simply move to use that method?

[Kim Goldsworthy]

Can he legally hold the "show-of-hands vote?

Without objection, YES.

But all you need to do is MAKE MOTION that the vote be conducted by _____ (your choice).

Majority vote.

Presidents do not unilaterally force a method of voting on the assembly.

[Josh Martin]

Can he legally hold the "show-of-hands vote?

Well, the assembly can hold a show of hands vote. RONR recommends that a show of hands vote not be used in larger assemblies, but it is not out of order. A rising vote is entirely appropriate. The President, however, does not have the authority to dictate the method of voting. A majority vote is required for the assembly to deviate from the default procedure. If the motion requires a majority vote, the default is a voice vote, followed by a rising vote if a member calls for a division of the assembly. If the motion requires a higher threshold (such as a 2/3 vote), the default is a rising vote.

What are my alternatives if he ignores me and proceeds with the agenda and the "show-of-hands" vote?

I suspect that in this case, the simplest solution is to make a motion to vote by whatever method you feel is preferable. If the President ignores this motion, see the procedure on RONR, 10th ed., pg. 642.

[Rob Elsman]

I am going to a very important meeting this Nov.30 - Dec. 1. The president is running for a second 2 year term. He finished the previous president's term of 1 year due to that president's illness in 2006. The current president was elected for a two year term for 2007 and 2008. He ran again and was elected to fill the slot for 2009 and 2010. Our Bylaws state that the president cannot run for more than 2 consecutive terms. At our General Assembly on Dec. 1 he has on the agenda, before any voting for officers takes place, that there will be a show of hands vote to waive the two term restriction. This waivber is OK by our bylaws. The problems I have are: Our Bylaws have no provision for taking a show-of-hands vote. But, our Bylaws do state that in all cases that are not specifically covered by these Bylaws shall be governed by Roberts' Rules of Order. My interpretation of Roberts' is that. a show -of-hands vote is generally held for small groups where individuals can see each other. Our voting "Group" is going to be between 60 and 75 who will be sitting around tables. Not a small group in my estimation. Based on our Bylaws and the verbage from Roberts'I intend to call for a point of order and challenge the agenda and the motion,as soon as the president announces that he will call for a show-of-hands vote on the waiver or at the time a motion is presented to do the vote. I realize that I can appeal if he decides to go on with the vote. He could hold a "stand & sit" vote but I bdelieve he would still be violating the small group. I'm not sure if he nor anyone on his Board of Directors has a clue about proper parlimentarian proceedures. There will be a guest judge and I assume several lawyers sitting around who might vounteer to help him out.

My questions to you are: Can he legally hold the "show-of-hands vote? What are my alternatives if he ignores me and proceeds with the agenda and the "show-of-hands" vote?

If a two-thirds vote is required to suspend the bylaw, then a vote by show of hands in lieu of a rising vote ("stand & sit") is only appropriate if no one objects. Presumably, if someone does object, the vote is taken by a rising vote, instead. See RONR (10th ed.), p. 397, ll. 20-23.