Guest Adriana Posted December 1, 2010 at 02:51 AM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 02:51 AM Hi,I have a couple questions on the proper process of accepting a resignation, as well as filling the vacant position.1. Does a body have to vote to accept someone's resignation? If they don't, what happens if the resignation is not accepted? Can we put off the resignation until a certain time if the letter is dated effective immediately? 2. Our constitution provides for two things in the case that this position becomes vacant: a. The position in question is Treasurer; our constitution provides that if the Treasurer is 'absent', our Vice-Treasurer can assume their financial duties. Does this include the vote that they are afforded at our meetings? b. Our constitution provides two different sets of instructions provided when the seat becomes vacant: so, if the position becomes vacant first semester, we have to have an election to fill the seat. If it becomes vacant second semester, the president can appoint a replacement. If the position becomes vacant first semester, but is still vacant second semester, are we still bound by the first semester instructions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted December 1, 2010 at 03:00 AM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 03:00 AM Hi,I have a couple questions on the proper process of accepting a resignation, as well as filling the vacant position.1. Does a body have to vote to accept someone's resignation? If they don't, what happens if the resignation is not accepted? Can we put off the resignation until a certain time if the letter is dated effective immediately? The assembly may decline to accept a resignation. Without the consent of the person resigning the date cannot be changed.2. Our constitution provides for two things in the case that this position becomes vacant: a. The position in question is Treasurer; our constitution provides that if the Treasurer is 'absent', our Vice-Treasurer can assume their financial duties. Does this include the vote that they are afforded at our meetings? b. Our constitution provides two different sets of instructions provided when the seat becomes vacant: so, if the position becomes vacant first semester, we have to have an election to fill the seat. If it becomes vacant second semester, the president can appoint a replacement. If the position becomes vacant first semester, but is still vacant second semester, are we still bound by the first semester instructions?You constitution is beyond the scope of this board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Adriana Posted December 1, 2010 at 03:08 AM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 03:08 AM The assembly may decline to accept a resignation. Without the consent of the person resigning the date cannot be changed.You constitution is beyond the scope of this board.So, what does that mean exactly? Is the resignation effective whether we approve it or not? What effect does declining to accept a resignation have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 1, 2010 at 03:09 AM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 03:09 AM 1. Does a body have to vote to accept someone's resignation?Yes.If they don't, what happens if the resignation is not accepted?Technically, the person remains in office. This should generally only be used if it is desired to take disciplinary action against the individual rather than allowing a resignation, since it is difficult as a practical matter to force someone to perform their duties.Can we put off the resignation until a certain time if the letter is dated effective immediately? Personally, I think it would be in order to include a proviso that the resignation shall not take effect until a later date. Even if this is not in order, the assembly could postpone the consideration of the resignation. The same caveats for declining the resignation apply here.2. Our constitution provides for two things in the case that this position becomes vacant: a. The position in question is Treasurer; our constitution provides that if the Treasurer is 'absent', our Vice-Treasurer can assume their financial duties. Does this include the vote that they are afforded at our meetings? b. Our constitution provides two different sets of instructions provided when the seat becomes vacant: so, if the position becomes vacant first semester, we have to have an election to fill the seat. If it becomes vacant second semester, the president can appoint a replacement. If the position becomes vacant first semester, but is still vacant second semester, are we still bound by the first semester instructions?Interpreting the Constitution is beyond the scope of this forum. It is up to your organization to interpret its own Constitution. See RONR, 10th ed., pgs. 570-573 for some Principles of Interpretation.Without the consent of the person resigning the date cannot be changed.I don't see why not, provided the date is being changed to a later time than is stated in the resignation letter. The assembly has essentially stated it will not accept the resignation now, but it will automatically be considered accepted at a later date. Of course, this has all the same problems as declining a resignation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted December 1, 2010 at 03:16 AM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 03:16 AM I have a couple questions on the proper process of accepting a resignation, as well as filling the vacant position.1. Does a body have to vote to accept someone's resignation? If they don't, what happens if the resignation is not accepted? Can we put off the resignation until a certain time if the letter is dated effective immediately? Yes. A resignation is a request to be excused from a duty. It needs to be voted on. If you don't, they will probably stop doing the job anyway, eventually, so you should vote as soon as practicable. The person resigning should continue to perform the job until the resignation is accepted, but realistically you don't have the power to force them. Use reason.2. Our constitution provides for two things in the case that this position becomes vacant: a. The position in question is Treasurer; our constitution provides that if the Treasurer is 'absent', our Vice-Treasurer can assume their financial duties. Does this include the vote that they are afforded at our meetings?Voting isn't something that can properly be called a "financial" duty. But wouldn't the Vice-Treasurer have a vote at meetings anyway? Or are you talking about meetings of a board or other body where the Vice Treasurer is not a member? b. Our constitution provides two different sets of instructions provided when the seat becomes vacant: so, if the position becomes vacant first semester, we have to have an election to fill the seat. If it becomes vacant second semester, the president can appoint a replacement. If the position becomes vacant first semester, but is still vacant second semester, are we still bound by the first semester instructions?If, as you say, the instructions depend on when the seat becomes vacant, then that would imply that it depends on when the seat becomes vacant, or the bylaws would presumably have said something different.If a seat becomes vacant in the first semester, and is still vacant in the second semester, you apparently didn't feel bound by the bylaw that required you to have an election. If your question is, "can we avoid being bound by our bylaws by simply ignoring them" then RONR would say "no". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Adriana Posted December 1, 2010 at 03:39 AM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 03:39 AM Yes. A resignation is a request to be excused from a duty. It needs to be voted on. If you don't, they will probably stop doing the job anyway, eventually, so you should vote as soon as practicable. The person resigning should continue to perform the job until the resignation is accepted, but realistically you don't have the power to force them. Use reason.Voting isn't something that can properly be called a "financial" duty. But wouldn't the Vice-Treasurer have a vote at meetings anyway? Or are you talking about meetings of a board or other body where the Vice Treasurer is not a member?If, as you say, the instructions depend on when the seat becomes vacant, then that would imply that it depends on when the seat becomes vacant, or the bylaws would presumably have said something different.If a seat becomes vacant in the first semester, and is still vacant in the second semester, you apparently didn't feel bound by the bylaw that required you to have an election. If your question is, "can we avoid being bound by our bylaws by simply ignoring them" then RONR would say "no".The thing that we were hoping to avoid is an elections process that will ultimately leave the seat vacant a lot longer than if we could just accept the resignation at the beginning of next semester and appoint someone right away. If we have an election, we don't have the time to have one this semester per the timeline outlined in our elections bylaws, and next semester, it will take almost a month before the seat is filled. Not trying to circumvent our constitution, just hoping that it might work for us a little more than it appears it will. We know that this person will not be fulfilling their duties whether we accept their resignation or not. Our Vice-Treasurer is an appointed position who does not have a vote at our meetings, only elected positions do. They are authorized to act on financial matters in the Treasurer's absence, but they do not assume the actual position of Treasurer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 1, 2010 at 04:12 AM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 04:12 AM The thing that we were hoping to avoid is an elections process that will ultimately leave the seat vacant a lot longer than if we could just accept the resignation at the beginning of next semester and appoint someone right away. If we have an election, we don't have the time to have one this semester per the timeline outlined in our elections bylaws, and next semester, it will take almost a month before the seat is filled. Not trying to circumvent our constitution, just hoping that it might work for us a little more than it appears it will. We know that this person will not be fulfilling their duties whether we accept their resignation or not.Well, I'm not a big fan of this plan, but nothing in RONR would prohibit it. Even if, as J. J. says, the effective date cannot be changed, you could just keep postponing the consideration of the resignation. Of course, if the Treasurer is okay with this plan, you might just want to talk to him and see if he'll change the effective date on his own, or just delay submitting his resignation until later, with the understanding that he's just there as a placeholder.How the provisions of your Constitution will interact with this is beyond the scope of this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Adriana Posted December 1, 2010 at 04:38 AM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 04:38 AM Thank you everyone for the responses. Our Treasurer wants her resignation to be effective immediately, mostly to throw us into this limbo space of filling the position, but I guess we will have to work with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted December 1, 2010 at 05:38 AM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 05:38 AM I don't see why not, provided the date is being changed to a later time than is stated in the resignation letter. The assembly has essentially stated it will not accept the resignation now, but it will automatically be considered accepted at a later date. Of course, this has all the same problems as declining a resignation.You can't accept something that was never offered. If I offer my resignation at noon on 12/1/10, I have not offered to stay on until 9:00 AM on6/1/11. Now, I can agree to stay on until then, but I can say no as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Adriana Posted December 1, 2010 at 06:18 AM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 06:18 AM You can't accept something that was never offered. If I offer my resignation at noon on 12/1/10, I have not offered to stay on until 9:00 AM on6/1/11. Now, I can agree to stay on until then, but I can say no as well.With the way the resignation is worded... does the "effective immediately" apply to when the letter was received, or, since it's been indicated that we have to vote to accept it, is "immediately" as soon as we accept it?What would happen, in the case you've presented, if the letter was dated effective noon on 12/1/10, but we did not meet and hold a vote until after that date?This gets back to the core of my question, which I've received more than one answer to at this point: is a resignation effective by virtue of the person resigning, or is it only effective once it is officially voted on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Goldsworthy Posted December 1, 2010 at 06:33 AM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 06:33 AM 1. Does a body have to vote to accept someone's resignation? If they don't, what happens if the resignation is not accepted? Can we put off the resignation until a certain time if the letter is dated effective immediately? • Yes, they have to vote, or at least somehow acknowledge the resignation. (E.g., one way to indirectly acknowledge the resignation is to announce a vacancy in that office.) • Yes, you can put off the resignation, even if the resignation includes a date. -- The date does not control the resignation; it is the ACCEPTANCE which triggers the resignation.2. Our constitution provides for two things in the case that this position becomes vacant: a. The position in question is Treasurer; our constitution provides that if the Treasurer is 'absent', our Vice-Treasurer can assume their financial duties. Does this include the vote that they are afforded at our meetings?No.There is a difference between (a.) the act of holding office; (b.) the act of helping out, or pinch-hitting, regarding the duties and deadlines which need to be done, if the primary person responsible isn't doing the job.Example: If the president is absent, and a temporary chairman wields the gavel, that temporary chairman isn't really the president, and picks up NO perqs of the office. b. Our constitution provides two different sets of instructions provided when the seat becomes vacant: so, if the position becomes vacant first semester, we have to have an election to fill the seat. If it becomes vacant second semester, the president can appoint a replacement. If the position becomes vacant first semester, but is still vacant second semester, are we still bound by the first semester instructions?Unknown. This vacancy-filling rule of yours is weird, and corresponds to nothing in the 700+ pages of RONR. So multi-interpretations of the rule is possible, even likely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 1, 2010 at 06:59 AM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 06:59 AM You can't accept something that was never offered. If I offer my resignation at noon on 12/1/10, I have not offered to stay on until 9:00 AM on6/1/11. Now, I can agree to stay on until then, but I can say no as well.Hm. This does make sense. Perhaps a better way of wording it would be that the assembly could conditionally accept the resignation, provided the officer agrees to stay on until such and such date. If the officer refuses, then the resignation is rejected, since the condition is not met.I'm having to think outside the box a bit here, as the situation is rather unusual.With the way the resignation is worded... does the "effective immediately" apply to when the letter was received, or, since it's been indicated that we have to vote to accept it, is "immediately" as soon as we accept it?"Immediately" would be as soon as you accept it. What would happen, in the case you've presented, if the letter was dated effective noon on 12/1/10, but we did not meet and hold a vote until after that date?It would take effect as soon as you accept it.This gets back to the core of my question, which I've received more than one answer to at this point: is a resignation effective by virtue of the person resigning, or is it only effective once it is officially voted on?A resignation is not effective until it has been acted upon by the assembly.Personally, I think the whole situation is quite bizarre, but if you intend on going ahead with it, I think the best course of action would be to postpone the resignation to the next meeting at each meeting until you reach the meeting where you wish to accept the resignation. The advantage of this strategy is that once the question on accepting the resignation is stated by the chair, the Treasurer cannot withdraw his resignation without the assembly's permission. Since the Treasurer is not on board with this plan, it would not be advisable to simply offer a conditional resignation (the Treasurer will likely refuse) or to reject the resignation (as the Treasurer may not offer another resignation, forcing you to take disciplinary action later on). You will need to make sure, however, that you have enough support at each meeting to get the motion to Postpone Definitely adopted. It is debatable and requires a majority vote.I think that's the best you can do without inventing special rules of order. If you believe you have a 2/3 vote on your side and can provide previous notice, you might be able to come up with something to make the process easier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted December 1, 2010 at 12:26 PM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 12:26 PM A resignation is not effective until it has been acted upon by the assembly.Personally, I think the whole situation is quite bizarre, but if you intend on going ahead with it, I think the best course of action would be to postpone the resignation to the next meeting at each meeting until you reach the meeting where you wish to accept the resignation. By handling it in this fashion, the Treasurer is still the Treasurer until the resignation is accepted. As our guest as stated, the Treasurer will not be fulfilling his duties in this interim. So who would? I recall a previous conversation here that leaves me thinking the duties of an officer cannot be assigned to another, in effect meaning whatever those duties are (banking, paying bills, etc) would need to go undone until a new Treasurer is elected/appointed. Now, I may be mis-remembering this point, but it seems like that was the core of it.Further, as "the duties of a position must not be abandoned until ... there has been a reasonable opportunity for it [the resignation] to be accepted" (p.279 l. 17-20), the first meeting at which the resignation is considered, and postponed to the next, would present this "opportunity", and the membership letting it pass would absolve the Treasurer of any charges of abandonment of duties, so that would not be any deterrent. Just mentioning that.Adriana -- you state "If we have an election, we don't have the time to have one this semester per the timeline outlined in our elections bylaws." Is this timeline in reference to regular elections? I'm wondering if it might not apply to the special election required in this case to fill a vacancy. Perhaps there is a little wiggle room in there, but a reading of the bylaws would be needed to answer that question. Just putting it out there for your consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted December 1, 2010 at 12:35 PM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 12:35 PM As our guest as stated, the Treasurer will not be fulfilling his duties in this interim. So who would?Our Vice-Treasurer is an appointed position who does not have a vote at our meetings, only elected positions do. They are authorized to act on financial matters in the Treasurer's absence, but they do not assume the actual position of Treasurer.Problem solved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted December 1, 2010 at 12:49 PM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 12:49 PM As our guest as stated, the Treasurer will not be fulfilling his duties in this interim. So who would? Our Vice-Treasurer is an appointed position who does not have a vote at our meetings, only elected positions do. They are authorized to act on financial matters in the Treasurer's absence, but they do not assume the actual position of Treasurer.Problem solved?Well, I'm not sure. As I would expect the Treasurer, for the most part, "acts on financial matters" outside the context of a meeting, when would he be "absent?" For example, the VP often assumes the parliamentary duties of the President in a meeting in the absence of the President, outside of the meeting this would not hold, since there is no "absence" to be assumed. Can there be "absence" outside of a meeting?Whatever duties the Treasurer must act upon in a meeting, the VT could assume those duties. Outside the meeting context, if the Treasurer is still the Treasurer, when would he be absent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted December 1, 2010 at 04:46 PM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 04:46 PM Hm. This does make sense. Perhaps a better way of wording it would be that the assembly could conditionally accept the resignation, provided the officer agrees to stay on until such and such date. If the officer refuses, then the resignation is rejected, since the condition is not met.I'm having to think outside the box a bit here, as the situation is rather unusual.I think that is it.I won't take credit for great insight because Dan H. raised the point a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 1, 2010 at 09:03 PM Report Share Posted December 1, 2010 at 09:03 PM So who would?Well, it looks like that will be an issue of interpretation of the organization's Constitution.Further, as "the duties of a position must not be abandoned until ... there has been a reasonable opportunity for it [the resignation] to be accepted" (p.279 l. 17-20), the first meeting at which the resignation is considered, and postponed to the next, would present this "opportunity", and the membership letting it pass would absolve the Treasurer of any charges of abandonment of duties, so that would not be any deterrent. Just mentioning that.It seems that the poster is well aware of that. The intent, it seems, is to use the Treasurer as an unwilling "placeholder" in order to take advantage of the vacancy-filling rule for second semester, not to try and take disciplinary action against the Treasurer or to force him to continue serving.Well, I'm not sure. As I would expect the Treasurer, for the most part, "acts on financial matters" outside the context of a meeting, when would he be "absent?" For example, the VP often assumes the parliamentary duties of the President in a meeting in the absence of the President, outside of the meeting this would not hold, since there is no "absence" to be assumed. Can there be "absence" outside of a meeting?Whatever duties the Treasurer must act upon in a meeting, the VT could assume those duties. Outside the meeting context, if the Treasurer is still the Treasurer, when would he be absent?Well, it looks like that will be an issue of interpretation of the organization's Constitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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