General Order and Take from the Table

[Rob Elsman]

When the chairman announces that the hour has arrived to take up a general order assigned to that hour (and, of course, when no other question is pending), is it in order for a member to obtain the floor and move to Take from the Table some other main motion under the rule of RONR (10th ed.), p. 291, ll. 14-33, notwithstanding that Take from the Table is not included in the conditions listed on p. 356, l. 30, through p. 357, l. 2?

[Josh Martin]

When the chairman announces that the hour has arrived to take up a general order assigned to that hour (and, of course, when no other question is pending), is it in order for a member to obtain the floor and move to Take from the Table some other main motion under the rule of RONR (10th ed.), p. 291, ll. 14-33, notwithstanding that Take from the Table is not included in the conditions listed on p. 356, l. 30, through p. 357, l. 2?

I think it depends on how the item became a general order. The underlying principle is that a motion which has been temporarily disposed of has the right of way over a new main motion. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 291, lines 30-33) If the item became a general order by way of a motion to Postpone to a Certain Time, it is not "a new main motion," but another motion which was temporarily disposed of. If the item became a general order through some other means, it would be a new main motion and a member could move to Take from the Table some other main motion.

[Guest Nancy N.]

I maybe disagree with Josh, mostly based on a feeling, but also two possibly weak arguments. First, I'd say that Take From has precedence over the general order, because of the Specific Supersedes General principle (p. 571, #3). And since Lay on the Table has precedence over Postpone, so should the reversals of each.

(I got a set ailerons here needs cleanin'.)

And let's hope the A-Team harmonizes this in the 11th Edition. Nice catch (again, smartass), Rob.

[Dan Honemann]

When the chairman announces that the hour has arrived to take up a general order assigned to that hour (and, of course, when no other question is pending), is it in order for a member to obtain the floor and move to Take from the Table some other main motion under the rule of RONR (10th ed.), p. 291, ll. 14-33, notwithstanding that Take from the Table is not included in the conditions listed on p. 356, l. 30, through p. 357, l. 2?

My own view of this is that the answer to the question is "no"; I think the general order has priority (so to speak) over the motion on the table. This opinion is based primarily on page 289, lines 16-18, and on page 357, lines 4-8. I do not think that a general order assigned to be taken up at a particular hour is ever a "new main motion" within the meaning of what is said on page 291.

But if you want a definitive answer on this you will need to wait for a response from Shmuel Gerber. He understands this aspect of the rules better than anyone else I know.

[Rob Elsman]

My own view of this is that the answer to the question is "no"; I think the general order has priority (so to speak) over the motion on the table. This opinion is based primarily on page 289, lines 16-18, and on page 357, lines 4-8. I do not think that a general order assigned to be taken up at a particular hour is ever a "new main motion" within the meaning of what is said on page 291.

But if you want a definitive answer on this you will need to wait for a response from Shmuel Gerber. He understands this aspect of the rules better than anyone else I know.

What is your understanding of "new" in RONR (10th ed.), p. 291, l. 33, given that ll. 18, 19, by reference to Standard Characteristic 1, give the right-of-way over unfinshed business or general orders, p. 290, ll. 1, 2?

[Tim Wynn]

My own view of this is that the answer to the question is "no"; I think the general order has priority (so to speak) over the motion on the table.

We all know:

Rock beats Scissors beats Paper beats Rock.

In this way, are you saying:

Take from the Table beats Unfinished Business and General Orders beats A General Order Set for a Particular Time beats Take from the Table?

[Dan Honemann]

We all know:

Rock beats Scissors beats Paper beats Rock.

In this way, are you saying:

Take from the Table beats Unfinished Business and General Orders beats A General Order Set for a Particular Time beats Take from the Table?

No, I was actually saying that I wasn’t really prepared to answer the question and would prefer that someone else do so.

There is some question as to exactly what was meant by “When the chairman announces that the hour has arrived to take up a general order …” My assumption was that it was referring to the time when the chairman announces the general order as the pending business, and that he had done so. In this event, a motion to Take from the Table would not be in order

If, however, the question really is whether or not, as the chairman starts to announce the general order as pending, any member can rise and interrupt the chair for the purpose of making a motion to Take from the Table, then the answer is yes, he can.

[George Mervosh]

No, I was actually saying that I wasn’t really prepared to answer the question and would prefer that someone else do so.

There is some question as to exactly what was meant by “When the chairman announces that the hour has arrived to take up a general order …” My assumption was that it was referring to the time when the chairman announces the general order as the pending business, and that he had done so. In this event, a motion to Take from the Table would not be in order

If, however, the question really is whether or not, as the chairman starts to announce the general order as pending, any member can rise and interrupt the chair for the purpose of making a motion to Take from the Table, then the answer is yes, he can.

Regardless of your preference, I think your explanation here makes perfect sense and is in harmony with what is in the book (or at least what the book intended to say)......unless some rotten little kid, PRP, comes along and says it's not.

[Dan Honemann]

Regardless of your preference, I think your explanation here makes perfect sense and is in harmony with what is in the book (or at least what the book intended to say)......unless some rotten little kid, PRP, comes along and says it's not.

Well, I doubt that even the rotten little kid, PRP, will say that a motion to Take from the Table can be made at a time when business is pending, and he can't very well object to the last sentence in view of what is said on page 348, lines 21-25.

[Rob Elsman]

When the chairman announces that the hour has arrived to take up a general order assigned to that hour (and, of course, when no other question is pending), is it in order for a member to obtain the floor and move to Take from the Table some other main motion under the rule of RONR (10th ed.), p. 291, ll. 14-33, notwithstanding that Take from the Table is not included in the conditions listed on p. 356, l. 30, through p. 357, l. 2?

Okay, I'm stumped.

[Tim Wynn]

If, however, the question really is whether or not, as the chairman starts to announce the general order as pending, any member can rise and interrupt the chair for the purpose of making a motion to Take from the Table, then the answer is yes, he can.

That was my understanding of what the question was, as I cannot imagine a universe where Rob would ask "if a motion to Take from the Table is in order while another motion is pending."

[Dan Honemann]

I apologize for my initial confusion, but in my own defense would point out that there is a material difference between "When the chairman announces that ...", and "When the chairman begins (or "starts") to announce that ..."

In either event, hasn't the question now been answered?

[Shmuel Gerber]

Well, I doubt that even the rotten little kid, PRP, will say that a motion to Take from the Table can be made at a time when business is pending, and he can't very well object to the last sentence in view of what is said on page 348, lines 21-25.

And, for the same reason, even Shmuel Gerber, PRP, will not say such a thing.

I do have the following note to myself from November 2007: "Can a motion to Take from the Table preempt the taking up of a general order for a certain hour? If yes, why is this not noted (in the discussion of taking up general orders) along with the calling up of a motion to reconsider?", so I'm glad Dan has cited a rather explicit answer to Rob's question.

[Rob Elsman]

And, for the same reason, even Shmuel Gerber, PRP, will not say such a thing.

I do have the following note to myself from November 2007: "Can a motion to Take from the Table preempt the taking up of a general order for a certain hour? If yes, why is this not noted (in the discussion of taking up general orders) along with the calling up of a motion to reconsider?", so I'm glad Dan has cited a rather explicit answer to Rob's question.

Well, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who wondered. And thank you all for clearing the matter up.

[Kim Goldsworthy]

Well, I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one who wondered. And thank you all for clearing the matter up.

Re "chair announces" vs. "chair begin to announce."

Analogy:

It is like the supercollider.

Some motions, or some time windows for making motions, are like subatomic particles: They only exist for a millisecond, before being lost forever.

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I suppose that is what the tinted pages are for. -- To fill those empty cells in the Periodic Table, of motions which we know exist, but never see.