Ballot Voting Question

[Guest Josh]

I was browsing online and found the following information.

http://condoandhoalawgroup.com/10-common-misconceptions-about-robers-rules-of-order.asp

Common Misconception #4

The Board of Directors may use secret ballots to vote on any issue they deem appropriate. Actually, the only time it is appropriate for secret ballots to be used is when the Board is electing the officers.

There were no references so I wanted to see if this could be backed up. Here are my questions:

1. Can a chair require a ballot vote?

2. Can the assembly make a motion to require or to disallow a ballot vote?

3. Is the above correct? Are ballot votes only allowed for elections?

Any help is appreciated!

[Rob Elsman]

I was browsing online and found the following information.

http://condoandhoala...es-of-order.asp

Common Misconception #4

The Board of Directors may use secret ballots to vote on any issue they deem appropriate. Actually, the only time it is appropriate for secret ballots to be used is when the Board is electing the officers.

There were no references so I wanted to see if this could be backed up. Here are my questions:

1. Can a chair require a ballot vote?

2. Can the assembly make a motion to require or to disallow a ballot vote?

3. Is the above correct? Are ballot votes only allowed for elections?

Any help is appreciated!

1. No rule in RONR gives the chairman of the board, acting on his own behalf, the power to take a vote by secret ballot.

2. The assembly can order that a vote be taken by secret ballot by majority vote. See RONR (10th ed.), §30, pp. 273ff. However, a bylaw requiring a vote by secret ballot is unsuspendable, RONR (10th ed.), p. 255, ll. 13-28.

3. No.

[tctheatc]

No way!! I've always thought if it were on the internet, it must be true!!

[Kim Goldsworthy]

I was browsing online and found the following information.

http://condoandhoalawgroup.com/10-common-misconceptions-about-robers-rules-of-order.asp

...

Any help is appreciated!

Yeow!

Your link's document is wrong on many things!

"10 Common Misconceptions About Robert's Rules of Order" itself is laboring under its own misconceptions!

***

Misconception #1 is WRONG.

It is not a rule of Robert's Rules that a president has a fiduciary duty to vote on all issues.

Misconception #2 is WRONG.

It is not a rule of Robert's Rules that "a director may only abstain from voting if [some condition]."

Misconception #9 is WRONG.

It is not a rule from Robert's Rules that 20% of the eligible voters must cast a ballot for an election to be valid.

Misconception #10 is WRONG.

It is not a rule of Robert's Rules that a board is prohibiting from barring non-board members when executive session is invoked.

***

Your document is describing misconceptions about the state's legal code for homeowners associations.

Your document isn't even close to describing the default rules of RONR Tenth Edition.

***

Don't go by anything they say, if they are implying that such and such is a rule from Robert's Rules of Order.

“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.”

– Mark Twain

[Gary Novosielski]

1. Can a chair require a ballot vote?

2. Can the assembly make a motion to require or to disallow a ballot vote?

3. Is the above correct? Are ballot votes only allowed for elections?

Any help is appreciated!

A case could be made that the Board, as an elected body representing and responsible to a constituency (viz. the membership), should not vote in secret, and should adopt a rule providing for roll-call votes. [RONR p. 405, l. 17-32 ]

[Rob Elsman]

A case could be made that the Board, as an elected body representing and responsible to a constituency (viz. the membership), should not vote in secret, and should adopt a rule providing for roll-call votes. [RONR p. 405, l. 17-32 ]

Most executive boards of ordinary societies customarily transact their business in executive session. In these cases, there is not much point in taking a vote by roll call, since the roll call will not be made available to the executive board members' electors. See RONR (10th ed.), p. 92, l. 34, through p. 93, l. 3

[hmtcastle]

In these cases, there is not much point in taking a vote by roll call, since the roll call will not be made available to the executive board members' electors.

Unless the electors order the minutes of the board meetings to be read at a meeting of the electors.

[Josh Martin]

1. Can a chair require a ballot vote?

No.

2. Can the assembly make a motion to require or to disallow a ballot vote?

Yes in the general case, but if the Bylaws require a ballot vote for certain items (typically for elections), such a rule is unsuspendable.

3. Is the above correct? Are ballot votes only allowed for elections?

No.

From reading further in the document you have provided, the title "10 Common Misconceptions About Robert's Rules of Order" is a misnomer. The document appears to be focused primarily on procedural rules in Florida state law applicable to Homeowners' Associations. Unfortunately, the document does not always clarify which statements are meant to apply to Florida HOA law and which statements are meant to apply to RONR (such as with CM #4). Additionally, much of the information which is stated about RONR is inaccurate. Whether the answers provided are accurate as a matter of Florida law is beyond the scope of this forum.

Other inaccuracies or ambiguities in the document include...

CM #1: "Robert’s Rules of Order do provide that the President of an assembly is only entitled to vote when the vote is by ballot or where the vote would change the result, i.e. break a tie." This is not quite correct, nor is it true for all assemblies. See FAQ #1 to see why "is only entitled" is not the best choice of words. Furthermore, it is customary that the chairman of a small board (about a dozen members or fewer) does vote in all cases. The rest of the answer deals with Florida HOA law.

CM #2: "Robert’s Rules of Order provides that a member who does not have an opinion on an issue may abstain from voting on the issue." This is correct, but it would be better to simplify it and state "Robert’s Rules of Order provides that a member may abstain from voting on the issue." The rest of the answer deals with Florida HOA law.

CM #5: "Most motions do need a second in order to be considered by the Board." If this is intended to be a statement about RONR, it is inaccurate for small boards (about a dozen members or fewer). In small boards, seconds are not required for any motions.

CM #9: "Additionally, it should be noted that there is no quorum requirement for the election of Directors of a condominium association but at least 20% of the eligible voters of the association must cast a ballot in order to have a valid election." If this is intended to be a statement about RONR, it is completely inaccurate.

In conclusion, if your association is a Homeowners' Association in the State of Florida I would consult a lawyer in order to clarify some of the ambiguities in this document. It is unclear if CM #4, for instance, is intended to be a statement about RONR (in which case it is clearly false) or a statement about Florida law. If your association is anything other than a Homeowners' Association in the state of Florida I wouldn't pay any heed to this document at all.

Unless the electors order the minutes of the board meetings to be read at a meeting of the electors.

I don't think it would be proper to include the roll call simply to prepare for the chance that the minutes may be ordered to be read at a meeting of the general membership. Unless the board intends to distribute the minutes to the membership (or at the very least, the section of the minutes containing the particular motion and the results of the roll call), a motion for a roll call vote would be pointless.

[Guest Chair 1]

A general election was held to elect 3 board members.Of 161 eligible voters,172 ballots were cast.The tellers randomly removed surplus ballots.The vote was accepted/adopted.Subsequently,the error was discovered and the election ruled invalid.According to Robert's Rules,was this an appropriate action?

[Gary Novosielski]

A general election was held to elect 3 board members.Of 161 eligible voters,172 ballots were cast.The tellers randomly removed surplus ballots.The vote was accepted/adopted.Subsequently,the error was discovered and the election ruled invalid.According to Robert's Rules,was this an appropriate action?

Please do not post the same question multiple times in existing topics. Start a new topic for a new question, and look for replies there.

[Gary c Tesser]

... if your association is a Homeowners' Association in the State of Florida I would consult a lawyer ...

... LIke, um, the lawyers who drafted this thing?

[Gary c Tesser]

No way!! I've always thought if it were on the internet, it must be true!!

That's "all knowledge is in fanzines." Adapted for use by later generations.

[Josh Martin]

... LIke, um, the lawyers who drafted this thing?

In any matter of importance I would be hesitant to go off of a brief, general document on the Internet, notwithstanding that it was drafted by lawyers.