Guest confused Posted January 16, 2011 at 12:38 AM Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 at 12:38 AM I have read Roberts Rules on how to hold an election of officers, and I am still confused. Our by laws state that the prsident shall appoint a nominating committee approved by the membership in September. The nominating committee shall present their report at the November meeting at which time nominations shall be also taken from the floor. The election of officers shall be at the December meeting. In reading Robert's rules it appears to me that the nominating committee's job is to find the best qualified person or persons to run for office. It states that they even if someone is nominated, but does not fulfill the requirements of the postion, the nominating committee is not obligated to recommend them for a position. Robert's rules says that at that particular meeting nominations will be taken from the floor until the chair declares nominations are closed. (hopefully only after everyone has stated their intentions). My confusion lies in that I have been told that nominations can be taken up to the time of voting by members for the positions. If the nominating committee's job is to find the best person for the ballot, and they do their job and work two months doing it and presenting a report to the membership, how can nominations again be open at the actual time of the election, when anyone could stand up and say they wish to be nominated, even though they may not have the qualifications? Is there not at some point before actually passing out ballots, that nominations are REALLY closed, so we are voting for qualified people? I hope I have explained my question well enough, and not confused everyone. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted January 16, 2011 at 12:45 AM Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 at 12:45 AM Is there not at some point before actually passing out ballots, that nominations are REALLY closed, so we are voting for qualified people?Yes, at some point nominations will be closed. But it could be moments before the voting begin. Or, if closed at the previous meeting, nominations could be re-opened.Next you need to distinguish between candidates who are "qualified" and candidates who are "eligible". Let's assume you have to be a member in order to hold office. That means you can't nominate someone who isn't a member because he's not eligible to hold office.* Now some might think this person is not "qualified" to hold office; that is, he doesn't have what it takes (e.g. a head for math if he's going to be treasurer).As for the selections of the nominating committee, the person they might think is best for the job is not necessarily the person anyone one else will think is best for the job. That's what nominations from the floor are for. So the selections of the nominating committee are just the first step in the process, not the last word. In the end, it's the votes that are counted, not the nominations.[*I suppose some might argue that, just as you can vote for an ineligible candidate, you can nominate an ineligible candidate, but there's no point in doing so since he would be unable to hold office if elected.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted January 16, 2011 at 01:12 AM Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 at 01:12 AM And in the end, you can vote for whomever you please, whether they're nominated, qualified, eligible, endorsed, or imaginary. Or, you can abstain and leave it up to the masses. All you can hope for is that a majority of voters have their wits about them come election time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted January 16, 2011 at 03:51 AM Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 at 03:51 AM The nominating committee shall present their report at the November meeting at which time nominations shall be also taken from the floor. The election of officers shall be at the December meeting. In reading Robert's rules it appears to me that the nominating committee's job is to find the best qualified person or persons to run for office. It states that they even if someone is nominated, but does not fulfill the requirements of the postion, the nominating committee is not obligated to recommend them for a position. Robert's rules says that at that particular meeting nominations will be taken from the floor until the chair declares nominations are closed. (hopefully only after everyone has stated their intentions). My confusion lies in that I have been told that nominations can be taken up to the time of voting by members for the positions. If the nominating committee's job is to find the best person for the ballot, and they do their job and work two months doing it and presenting a report to the membership, how can nominations again be open at the actual time of the election, when anyone could stand up and say they wish to be nominated, even though they may not have the qualifications? Is there not at some point before actually passing out ballots, that nominations are REALLY closed, so we are voting for qualified people? I hope I have explained my question well enough, and not confused everyone. Thanks!Once the nominating committee completes its work, rises, and reports to the society in November, it goes out of existence. They're done. For all their hard work and months of research, recruitment, and all the rest, they get the well-earned thanks of the society. But they're done. Presumably they have found the best person for each job who, in their judgment, would naturally be the best person to elect. But their judgment cannot be substituted for the judgment of the membership. They are--done.If the membership, which placed its trust in the nominating committee, continues to trust their judgment after hearing their report, then the results will no doubt be in line with their recommendations. But if they're not, well, then we presume that the membership has a reason for thinking differently.Nominations are taken from the floor to allow for that eventuality. Quite often there aren't any. But if there are, there's always a reason--good, bad, goofy, ceremonial, but some reason. Sometimes you can figure it out, sometimes you can't. The chair can declare nominations closed (without objection) whenever no more nominations are offered. If there is objection (unlikely, if everyone was heard), nominations can still be closed by a motion, seconded and adopted by a 2/3 vote. But that motion isn't in order while someone is still seeking to offer a nomination. At any time later, even at the next meeting right up until the time of the election, a motion to reopen nominations would be in order, and requires only a majority vote for adoption. As you can see, RONR is heavily "biased" in favor of there being more nominations, not fewer; it is much easier to reopen nominations than to close them.That's in line with the philosophy that the membership ultimately knows best. (Well, that's the fervent hope, anyway.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Goldsworthy Posted January 16, 2011 at 06:09 AM Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 at 06:09 AM I have read Roberts Rules on how to hold an election of officers, and I am still confused. Our by laws state:• that that the president shall appoint a nominating committee approved by the membership in September. • that the nominating committee shall present their report at the November meeting at which time nominations shall be also taken from the floor. • that the election of officers shall be at the December meeting. In reading Robert's rules it appears to me that the nominating committee's job is to find the best qualified person or persons to run for office. It states that they even if someone is nominated, but does not fulfill the requirements of the position, the nominating committee is not obligated to recommend them for a position. Robert's rules says that at that particular meeting nominations will be taken from the floor until the chair declares nominations are closed. (hopefully only after everyone has stated their intentions).My confusion lies in that I have been told that nominations can be taken up to the time of voting by members for the positions. If the nominating committee's job is to find the best person for the ballot, and they do their job and work two months doing it and presenting a report to the membership, how can nominations again be open at the actual time of the election, when anyone could stand up and say they wish to be nominated, even though they may not have the qualifications? Is there not at some point before actually passing out ballots, that nominations are REALLY closed, so we are voting for qualified people?"... qualifications ..."?There is your problem.Robert's Rules of Order is clear. -- THERE ARE NO QUALFICATIONS FOR OFFICE.If you think that there are qualifications for office then those qualifications MUST come from somewhere OTHER THAN Robert's Rules of Order.THAT is why Robert's Rules of Order is so flexible with regard to nominations. -- There are no qualifications to fulfill.Under the default rules of RONR 10th edtion, you are free to elect:• expelled members• suspended members• convicted felons• people incarcerated in federal prison• minors, children, babies• nonmembers of the organizationLikewise, you are free to elect:• treasurers who cannot add or subject• secretaries who cannot read and write• sergeant-at-arms who are paralyzed• presidents who know nothing about parliamentary procedureOnce you introduce qualifications for office, then you will have jumped outside the default assumption of RONR. -- That anyone -- even complete strangers -- can be elected to office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest relyles Posted January 16, 2011 at 07:51 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 at 07:51 PM If the bylaws provide that a nominating committee must post notice of its slate of candidates at a specific time before the meeting/election, but also allow nominations at the election, what happens if you get to the meeting and the committee failed to satisfy the notice candidate? Is there any prohibition against then considering those candidates nominations from the floor and then voting on them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Goldsworthy Posted January 16, 2011 at 08:04 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 at 08:04 PM If the bylaws provide that a nominating committee must post notice of its slate of candidates at a specific time before the meeting/election, but also allow nominations at the election, what happens if you get to the meeting and the committee failed to satisfy the notice candidate? "What happens"?Nothing.There is no penalty.Is there any prohibition against then considering those candidates nominations from the floor and then voting on them?Nope. No prohibition.You are free to nominate dynamically on the day of the election.You merely re-open nominations, put up your favorite names, close nominations (again), and go straight to balloting.Nothing to it.That is how thousands of organizations do it.Why not your organization? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted January 16, 2011 at 10:20 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 at 10:20 PM If the bylaws provide that a nominating committee must post notice of its slate of candidates at a specific time before the meeting/election, but also allow nominations at the election, what happens if you get to the meeting and the committee failed to satisfy the notice candidate?The report of the nominating committee will be invalid, and I would probably put different people on the nominating committee next year.Is there any prohibition against then considering those candidates nominations from the floor and then voting on them?No. Any or all of the candidates from the invalid nominating committee's report may be nominated from the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted January 16, 2011 at 10:29 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 at 10:29 PM If the bylaws provide that a nominating committee must post notice of its slate of candidates at a specific time before the meeting/election, but also allow nominations at the election, what happens if you get to the meeting and the committee failed to satisfy the notice candidate? Is there any prohibition against then considering those candidates nominations from the floor and then voting on them?No prohibition at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Goldsworthy Posted January 16, 2011 at 10:31 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 at 10:31 PM The report of the nominating committee will be invalid, ......Any or all of the candidates from the invalid nominating committee's report may be nominated from the floor.Not true.Committee reports which are late are not invalid. The reports are just late.• The committee itself is not invalidated.• The report itself is not invalidated.It will take something more than a mere deadline to turn a report from valid to invalid.***Analogy:Q. Is an audit committee report invalid because it takes an extra month (an extra meeting) to be written up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted January 16, 2011 at 10:56 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 at 10:56 PM It will take something more than a mere deadline to turn a report from valid to invalid.Well, yes, but if nominations are due by a certain bylaws-set deadline, presumably needed to print ballots or some other reason, and the nominations weren't made, then the nominations didn't occur. It depends upon the nature of the deadline. If the assembly does not receive the report at the prescribed time, it has little basis to assume that the report will eventually arrive in time to be useful.Also, I seem to recall that the failure of a committee charged with a deadline to meet that deadline would result in the vote requirement for a Discharge motion being lowered from 2/3 to a majority vote (by effectively waiving the notice requirement), or something along those lines. At any rate, failure to meet deadlines can and often does have consequences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted January 16, 2011 at 11:19 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2011 at 11:19 PM Not true.Committee reports which are late are not invalid. The reports are just late.• The committee itself is not invalidated.• The report itself is not invalidated.It will take something more than a mere deadline to turn a report from valid to invalid.I disagree. The poster said that the nominating committee must "post notice" of the report by a given date. If this is not done, the report is not valid.Analogy:Q. Is an audit committee report invalid because it takes an extra month (an extra meeting) to be written up?There is a distinction between a requirement for posting notice and a simple deadline for reporting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Goldsworthy Posted January 17, 2011 at 01:09 AM Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 at 01:09 AM I disagree. The poster said that the nominating committee must "post notice" of the report by a given date. If this is not done, the report is not valid.Not true.You are confusing (a.) previous notice; (b.) "posting notice".You don't need to give previous notice (#a) for candidates or nominees.Only (a.) motions or (b.) holding elections for officers, need previous notice.Nominations do not need previous notice.Granted: Elections do need notice, if it is for officers.Thus, their "posting notice" is just a deadline. It isn't "notice" as RONR uses the term.There is a distinction between a requirement for posting notice and a simple deadline for reporting.No there isn't."Posting notice" is just a fancy term for a deadline.That is like saying . . .:• posting notice of winners of the election• posting notice of a raffle• posting notice of dues being due... are all things which are equal to, or which require, previous notice.Reports from committees cannot give previous notice, since, of the two ways of giving previous notice, a committee report cannot give notice either way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest relyles Posted January 17, 2011 at 04:01 AM Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 at 04:01 AM I appreciate the quick responses and apologize if my imprecise description of the requirements led to some ambiguity. Here is the language from the bylaws quoted:"The Pastor shall appoint a Nominating Committee which committee shall bring in a slate of officers to be elected to fill all vacancies at the Annual meeting; such a slate to be posted two weeks prior to the Annual Meeting. Nominations for office may also be made by members at the Annual meeting".IN this instance the nominating committee presented the slate at the Annual meeting, but did not post it two weeks prior. It was quickly noted by a member that the posting requirement was not adhered to. It was then determined that although the candidates could not be voted on as a slate presented by the Nominating Committee, they could be nominated from the floor and voted on on that basis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted January 17, 2011 at 04:07 AM Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 at 04:07 AM It was then determined that although the candidates could not be voted on as a slate presented by the Nominating Committee, they could be nominated from the floor and voted on on that basis.The selections of the nominating committee are never "voted on as a slate".Individual candidates are nominated individually and voted on individually.There is no "slate". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted January 17, 2011 at 05:27 AM Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 at 05:27 AM You don't need to give previous notice (#a) for candidates or nominees.You do if the Bylaws say you need to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted January 17, 2011 at 06:03 AM Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 at 06:03 AM Individual candidates are nominated individually and voted on individually.There is no "slate".Well, the bylaws say that there is a "slate". But fortunately they don't say anything about voting on it as a unit, so people can be voted on (or not) individually.In this case, the term "slate" should be considered as a synonym for "list". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Goldsworthy Posted January 17, 2011 at 08:45 AM Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 at 08:45 AM You do if the Bylaws say you need to.Yes.But, do the bylaws of the original poster "need to"?No.Read the "relyles" post:Here is the language from the bylaws quoted:S1. "...a Nominating Committee, which committee shall bring in a slate of officers to be elected to fill all vacancies at the Annual meeting; such a slate to be posted two weeks prior to the Annual Meeting."S2. "Nominations for office may also be made by members at the Annual meeting".Note:• Names of those up for election may appear on a nominating committee report. If they do appear, the names will be posted two weeks prior to the AGM.• Names of those up for election may be presented orally at the same meeting where the election is being held.Q. Do the names of those up for election need to satisfy the parliamentary rules for previous notice?A. No. The two-week deadline, if missed, will not prevent anyone's name from being put up for election.Note well: The rules in RONR for previous notice do not allow same-day anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted January 17, 2011 at 04:09 PM Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 at 04:09 PM Note well: The rules in RONR for previous notice do not allow same-day anything.Why tack on apparently irrelevant statements such as this, especially when they are inaccurate (or misleading at best)?Suppose a session consists of a meeting in the morning, after which the assembly adjourns to meet again at 8:00PM that same day. As far as the rules in RONR are concerned, a member can effectively give notice at the morning meeting of a motion which he intends to make at the 8:00PM meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted January 17, 2011 at 10:00 PM Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 at 10:00 PM Note:• Names of those up for election may appear on a nominating committee report. If they do appear, the names will be posted two weeks prior to the AGM.• Names of those up for election may be presented orally at the same meeting where the election is being held.Q. Do the names of those up for election need to satisfy the parliamentary rules for previous notice?A. No. The two-week deadline, if missed, will not prevent anyone's name from being put up for election.I'm not sure what we're arguing about, then, because I never claimed otherwise. I'm just suggesting that the nominating committee's report is invalid. Any or all of the nominations included in the report could be made from the floor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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