robert conway Posted January 29, 2011 at 08:53 PM Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 at 08:53 PM Mail in ballots that are currently being recieved by tellers. Are being opened, tallied and if not signed by the voter, they are being returned asking for a signature. Then return to be counted B/4 deadline.I would think this would invalidate, by solicitation of voter signature after he/she has already voted.Mail in ballots are allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted January 29, 2011 at 09:06 PM Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 at 09:06 PM Mail in ballots that are currently being recieved by tellers. Are being opened, tallied and if not signed by the voter, they are being returned asking for a signature. Then return to be counted B/4 deadline.I would think this would invalidate, by solicitation of voter signature after he/she has already voted.Mail in ballots are allowed.As Mr. Martin replied yesterday, "The vote is null and void as the secrecy of the ballots is being compromised and must be redone (assuming, of course, that your Bylaws permit mail ballots at all). You should raise a Point of Order at the next meeting and Appeal from the decision of the chair if necessary." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted January 29, 2011 at 09:13 PM Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 at 09:13 PM As Mr. Martin replied yesterday, "The vote is null and void as the secrecy of the ballots is being compromised and must be redone (assuming, of course, that your Bylaws permit mail ballots at all). You should raise a Point of Order at the next meeting and Appeal from the decision of the chair if necessary."Who said this ballot is supposed to be secret? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted January 29, 2011 at 09:22 PM Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 at 09:22 PM Who said this ballot is supposed to be secret?Secrecy is the essence of a ballot vote and the default. So no one has to say they're supposed to be secret. Someone has to say (and prove) they're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted January 29, 2011 at 10:05 PM Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 at 10:05 PM Secrecy is the essence of a ballot vote and the default. So no one has to say they're supposed to be secret. Someone has to say (and prove) they're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted January 29, 2011 at 10:11 PM Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 at 10:11 PM Mail in voting tellers says they are not secret ballots there fore they can open and count.If this true I can not find where if ballot not signed by voter they can be sent back for signatureNot being secret is why I am re posting rather that post to Mr. Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted January 29, 2011 at 10:29 PM Author Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 at 10:29 PM I should say this is voting by mail were ballots are not secret.I have problems with bylaws saying written ballots can be used, proxy voting, or in person. All for a bylaws change."Written ballots" was chosen from this Article in bylaws and belived to be allowing "Voting by mail" for entire association spread all over.So I really don't know how to interpret. Except for the intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted January 30, 2011 at 01:02 AM Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 at 01:02 AM Secrecy is the essence of a ballot vote and the default. So no one has to say they're supposed to be secret. Someone has to say (and prove) they're not.So in this forum now RONR is silent.I thought I spelled out the delema and as I have said they are not secret according to RONR voting by mail.The quetsion has been put to the board and thier Pariliamentary expert says, they can do what this post is all about. Return ballots for voter signature, if signature is missing on ballot.If this is out of order experts just say so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted January 30, 2011 at 01:11 AM Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 at 01:11 AM I thought I spelled out the delema and as I have said they are not secret according to RONR voting by mail.The quetsion has been put to the board and thier Pariliamentary expert says, they can do what this post is all about. Return ballots for voter signature, if signature is missing on ballot.Mail in ballots can be secret or not secret depending on what the assembly wishes (RONR pp. 410-411). So the question is who decided that the ballots would not be secret? Was there a motion adopted saying signed ballots would be used or the bylaws say this or is someone making this claim with no rule or adopted motion to back it up?RONR p. 398 says "Voting by ballot (slips of paper on which the voter marks his vote) is used when secrecy of the members' votes is desired" which is the default definition of a ballot vote. So unless a motion was adopted or the bylaws specify the vote is to be taken by signed ballot the default rule is the ballot is to remain secret.Edited to add cite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Goldsworthy Posted January 30, 2011 at 01:54 AM Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 at 01:54 AM I should say this is voting by mail where ballots are not secret....I have problems with bylaws saying written ballots can be used, proxy voting, or in person. ...So I really don't know how to interpret. ...That's the problem.You are asking for a Robertian interpretation of (definitely) NON-Robertian wording.Impossible to do.Where an organization has chosen to customize its language, and insert practices not recommended, namely:1. having proxy voting2. mixing proxy voting, mail voting, and in-person voting... that organization must pay the penalty for its foolishness.One penalty is that you lose out to a Robertian interpretation of fixed, well-established interpretation of key words and phrases.You have made a bed of thorns.You must lie in the bed you have made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted January 30, 2011 at 02:43 AM Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 at 02:43 AM Mail in ballots can be secret or not secret depending on what the assembly wishes (RONR pp. 410-411). So the question is who decided that the ballots would not be secret? Was there a motion adopted saying signed ballots would be used or the bylaws say this or is someone making this claim with no rule or adopted motion to back it up?RONR p. 398 says "Voting by ballot (slips of paper on which the voter marks his vote) is used when secrecy of the members' votes is desired" which is the default definition of a ballot vote. So unless a motion was adopted or the bylaws specify the vote is to be taken by signed ballot the default rule is the ballot is to remain secret.Edited to add cite.Amendment:Bylaws say " these bylaws may be amended only by the affimative vote (in person or by alternate) or written consent of Voting Members representing sixty-seven (67%)percentof the total votes of the Association. Howeverthe percentage of votes necessary to amend a specific clause shall not be less than the prescribed percentage of affirmative votes required for action to be taken under that clause"No amendment shall be effective until recorded in public records.The board wants to make amendments to bylaws and no motions were presented to the Association other than a letter from the board on what they would like to do (a motion?)with bylaws changes and a ballot to return to the Chair person of the Tellers.The board chose this method to reach all Members near and far. Believing that written consent means vote by mail?As no meeting is planned for these amendments.It is hard to decifer this stuff with out knowledge of RONR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted January 30, 2011 at 02:59 AM Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 at 02:59 AM The board wants to make amendments to bylaws and no motions were presented to the Association other than a letter from the board on what they would like to do (a motion?)with bylaws changes and a ballot to return to the Chair person of the Tellers.The board chose this method to reach all Members near and far. Believing that written consent means vote by mail?First I would ask where the Board thinks it has the authority to interpret that the term "written consent" means mail voting let alone "choose" to use it? Unless the bylaws grant them that authority the authority resides with the membership and the Board should leave Association business to the Association. Next, I would not be so quick to interpret "written consent" as meaning mail voting (I have no clue what it means and the bylaws should be amended to provide clarity). RONR pp. 408-409 says that exceptions to the rule that members must be present at the meeting at the time the vote is taken must be expressly stated in the bylaws and "written consent" doesn't seem too express to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted January 30, 2011 at 04:54 AM Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 at 04:54 AM Amendment:Bylaws say " these bylaws may be amended only by the affimative vote (in person or by alternate) or written consent of Voting Members representing sixty-seven (67%)percentof the total votes of the Association. Howeverthe percentage of votes necessary to amend a specific clause shall not be less than the prescribed percentage of affirmative votes required for action to be taken under that clause"No amendment shall be effective until recorded in public records.The board wants to make amendments to bylaws and no motions were presented to the Association other than a letter from the board on what they would like to do (a motion?)with bylaws changes and a ballot to return to the Chair person of the Tellers.The board chose this method to reach all Members near and far. Believing that written consent means vote by mail?It is up to your organization to interpret its own Bylaws. See RONR, 10th ed., pgs. 570-573 for some Principles of Interpretation. I forgot that "ballot" is not presumed to mean a secret ballot in the case of a mail vote, but that seems like a rather unimportant point compared to determining whether mail voting is authorized by your Bylaws at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted January 30, 2011 at 01:04 PM Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 at 01:04 PM Amendment:Bylaws say " these bylaws may be amended only by the affimative vote (in person or by alternate) or written consent of Voting Members representing sixty-seven (67%)percentof the total votes of the Association. Howeverthe percentage of votes necessary to amend a specific clause shall not be less than the prescribed percentage of affirmative votes required for action to be taken under that clause"No amendment shall be effective until recorded in public records.The board wants to make amendments to bylaws and no motions were presented to the Association other than a letter from the board on what they would like to do (a motion?)with bylaws changes and a ballot to return to the Chair person of the Tellers.The board chose this method to reach all Members near and far. Believing that written consent means vote by mail?As no meeting is planned for these amendments.It is hard to decifer this stuff with out knowledge of RONR.Without a meeting, there can be no motion, no second, and no debate. You can't "move" a motion except at a meeting.I wish I could say this ranks as the most bogus attempt at board power grabbing I've ever heard of, but it's pretty high up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted January 31, 2011 at 01:12 AM Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 at 01:12 AM Without a meeting, there can be no motion, no second, and no debate. You can't "move" a motion except at a meeting.I wish I could say this ranks as the most bogus attempt at board power grabbing I've ever heard of, but it's pretty high up there.What kind of meeting? That is how far the wool has been pulled.This voting by mail was called by a vote of the board and suggested by their parliamentarian person. Who is now the facilatator of board meetings.The recent board meeting I attended, this facilatator presided over the intire meeting.The board is seeking to reduce the quorum needed for our annual meeting. Hence the voting by mail ballots and sending back of unsigned ballots, (as #1 post) Attendence at annual meetings, has been SEVERAL PERSONS SHORT? or by Proxies. Still short.We did not have an annual meeting last year and officers are still in place until, ratifacation at (what ever kind of meeting).Thanks to the RONR forum folks help here.Marly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted January 31, 2011 at 04:22 AM Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 at 04:22 AM What kind of meeting?Well, as far as RONR is concerned, a meeting means the assembly "meets in a single room or area or under equivalent conditions of opportunity for simultaneous aural communication among all participants." (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 1, lines 12-14) The "equivalent conditions" clause means a teleconference or something of that sort, and even that requires Bylaws authorization.This voting by mail was called by a vote of the board and suggested by their parliamentarian person.The board may only call votes by mail if authorized to do so by your Bylaws.The recent board meeting I attended, this facilatator presided over the intire meeting.Well, that's not really a big deal. The board can let someone other than the usual chair preside over their meetings if they wish. A majority vote is sufficient if the chair and vice chair agree with the plan, and a 2/3 vote is required if not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted February 1, 2011 at 12:03 AM Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 at 12:03 AM I forgot that "ballot" is not presumed to mean a secret ballot in the case of a mail vote . . .I don't think the fact that RONR says that a mail-in ballot might not be secret is the same as saying that a mail-in ballot, like any other ballot, is not presumed to be secret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted February 1, 2011 at 12:56 AM Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 at 12:56 AM Mail in ballots can be secret or not secret depending on what the assembly wishes (RONR pp. 410-411). So the question is who decided that the ballots would not be secret? Was there a motion adopted saying signed ballots would be used or the bylaws say this or is someone making this claim with no rule or adopted motion to back it up?RONR p. 398 says "Voting by ballot (slips of paper on which the voter marks his vote) is used when secrecy of the members' votes is desired" which is the default definition of a ballot vote. So unless a motion was adopted or the bylaws specify the vote is to be taken by signed ballot the default rule is the ballot is to remain secret.Edited to add cite.Bylaws only allow as posted, for bylaws changes, method of voting by mail was adoped at meeting of our board not the HOA meeting that has not been held for over a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted February 1, 2011 at 01:04 AM Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 at 01:04 AM I don't think the fact that RONR says that a mail-in ballot might not be secret is the same as saying that a mail-in ballot, like any other ballot, is not presumed to be secret. RONR folks here is where I get confused. I have read RONR on voting by mail and the cite says ballots are not secret. Voting by mail vs mail in ballot? One is secret the other is not.A little clarity please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted February 1, 2011 at 01:15 AM Author Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 at 01:15 AM It is up to your organization to interpret its own Bylaws. See RONR, 10th ed., pgs. 570-573 for some Principles of Interpretation. I forgot that "ballot" is not presumed to mean a secret ballot in the case of a mail vote, but that seems like a rather unimportant point compared to determining whether mail voting is authorized by your Bylaws at all.Here too, some of my post said bylaws allow "or written consent", this was interperted by the board as allowing Voting by mail, at a board meeting. Not general assembly of association. Most members have no clue why board wants changes of bylaws, until arrival of ballot, asking for thier vote.very gutsy board! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted February 1, 2011 at 01:21 AM Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 at 01:21 AM Bylaws only allow as posted, for bylaws changes, method of voting by mail was adoped at meeting of our board not the HOA meeting that has not been held for over a year.The question still remains on where the Board thinks it has the authority to determine the vote would be held by signed ballot? Nothing in the bylaws cite you gave grants them that authority. Me thinks they are exceeding their authority. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted February 1, 2011 at 01:25 AM Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 at 01:25 AM RONR folks here is where I get confused. I have read RONR on voting by mail and the cite says ballots are not secret. Voting by mail vs mail in ballot? One is secret the other is not.A little clarity please.No it doesn't. It says that there is the option of it being secret or not. Voting by mail is voting by ballot (how else can it be done besides by a piece of paper?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted February 1, 2011 at 01:26 AM Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 at 01:26 AM Here too, some of my post said bylaws allow "or written consent", this was interperted by the board as allowing Voting by mail, at a board meeting. Not general assembly of association. Most members have no clue why board wants changes of bylaws, until arrival of ballot, asking for thier vote.very gutsy board!Again, what authority does the Board have to decide that pizza will be served at the Membership meeting let alone the method of voting used for the bylaw amendment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert conway Posted February 2, 2011 at 01:17 AM Author Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 at 01:17 AM Again, what authority does the Board have to decide that pizza will be served at the Membership meeting let alone the method of voting used for the bylaw amendment?This should answer some of my questions of the board actions. I used the advise from this forum and here is what I got. State statutes will be ommited from this post.Pursuance to<>, RONR only apply to the conduct of Association Meetings (Statutes includes AND EXCUTIVE BOARDS).Action by the membership via written ballot is not an action taken at a meeting; accordingly RONR does not apply to the proceedure for taking membership vote by written ballot.The very nature of written ballot does not allow for a "secret ballot" as it must be signed and dated by voting member.Secret ballot only comes into effect when voting is taking place at a membership meeting.Again the ballots are opened when they arrive by mail and if voter has not signed or dated their ballot, their intent was clear by returning such ballot; they wish to vote and have their vote counted. Asking a voter to return to sign or date their ballot is not out of order as the intent of the voter is clear.Early post tell what bylaws allow for voting proceedures.Are we in trouble? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted February 2, 2011 at 02:07 AM Report Share Posted February 2, 2011 at 02:07 AM Are we in trouble?OH YEAH!! None of what you said is in accordance with RONR. You all need to call 800-911-RONR stat! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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