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Mr's. Martin & Katz, Literally, the only thing in our docs that speaks to our topic, is what I’ve already quoted. If you think those 2 quotes from our docs, are irrelevant, well, that’s all that’s there. Try running an association based on that. Now, this is taken from our old 1985 documents. This association was open to the public to buy condos in 1985: 2.4 Vacancies and Removal Except as to vacancies provided by removal of members of the Executive Board by the Unit Owners, vacancies is the Executive Board occurring between annual meetings of the Unit Owners shall be filled by the majority vote of the remaining members of the Executive Board. After the first Organizational Meeting as provided in section 2.1 (b) hereof, any member of the Executive Board may be removed by vote of seventy -five percent (75%) in interest of the Unit Owners at a special meeting of the Unit Owners called for that purpose. The vacancy so created in the Executive Board shall be filled at the meeting by a vote of the majority in interest of the Unit Owners. Until the First Organizational Meeting, any member of the Executive board may be removed by the Developer, other than those elected by Unit Owners. 2.5 “Term” The term of service of each member of the Executive board shall extend until the next annual meeting of the Unit Owners and thereafter until such member is removed in the manner provided in Section 2.4 hereof. Frustrated? Me, too. Consider this: We know that the association owners vote & elect some other owner who wants to run for the Board (not a specific position on the Board). Once elected onto the Board, it is from amongst the 5 Board members, that they debate & vote for a position on the Board. Now, I haven’t found any further language in the reverse, so to speak: when a Board member (in this case, the President) is behaving, on occasion, unlawfully & unethically according to our doc By-Laws, then one can assume that it is from that same body, the Board, that the President can be 'un-voted’ as the President but remain on the Board. The option of a special meeting of the owners to meet & vote, is only to remove the President, entirely, from the Board. That Special Meeting does not offer the owners an option of removing the President from her position as President & changing her Board position. Therefore, the only people that are left to remove the President from that position, to another Board position, are the Board members, themselves. I’ve searched our docs. There is literally nothing describing that process from within the Board. So, what’s been happening for many years, in this type of process, is someone on the Board makes a motion to remove the President (in this case). The motion is seconded. They may discuss that topic at the time & then a vote within the Board, is taken. Majority rules (say, 3 to 2, to remove) & the President is removed to another Board position. I can’t find anything in our docs that describes the process that I’ve just stated-nothing! As with other rules in our docs, people just figure it out as situations unfold over the years & never get around to officially, writing (amending) remedies to problems/issues, into our docs. I’ve called this kind of loosey-goosey ‘governing’ a 'traditional process’. It’s awful but I think that’s what has occurred over the years & that’s what has happened, here. I have no other explanation.

Wow! Incredible knowledge & yes, a long way to the end point of getting the President to another Board position. Thank you! As I said before, it’s happened in the last 4 years, that a Secretary (previous to me), her position was changed to member-at-large by a Board vote of 4 to 1(-the Secretary, herself). It happened quickly. Nothing like the procedure that you described above. Now, I can’t tell & don’t know if they ‘winged it' or followed some directions from somewhere else, to assign her that other position. I wouldn’t call those 4, exactly ethical, so they may have winged it (made it up) to switch her position. They actually held Board meetings & didn’t tell her the meeting dates. Unbelievable!

Morning, All! From our association documents: 2.4 Vacancies and Removal Except as vacancies provided by removal of members of the Executive Board by the Unit Owners, vacancies is the Executive Board occurring between annual meetings of the Unit Owners shall be filled by the majority vote of the remaining members of the Executive Board. Any member of the Executive Board may be removed by vote of seventy -five percent (75%) in interest of the Unit Owners at a special meeting of the Unit Owners called for that purpose. The vacancy so created in the Executive Board shall be filled at the meeting by a vote of the majority in interest of the Unit Owners or left vacant. 2.5 Term The term of service of each member of the Executive Board shall extend for the period of two (2) years. Keep in mind, we do not have 75% of 68 units to vote the President off the board. Few would attend a special meeting to remove the President, anyway. I don’t think we’d even get a quorum at that special meeting so that’s a waste of time. Besides, we don’t want to remove this current President from the board, just assign her another position like member-at-large. None of that 1st paragraph, above, from our docs, speaks to how the 5 Board members ‘remove’ her as President & assign her another Board position. I’ve read all 12 'By-Laws' pages. This is the closest instructions that are written in our docs, referring to our topic. Wait... I see that I’m reading the above, from a 2013 ‘updated' version (not sure of the right terminology) of our 1985 original documents. I have to dig those out & look up if there was something more specific in those docs about Board members removing the President from her position & reassigning her Board position to, say, member-at-large, or some other Board position.

Yes, Mr. Katz, I will answer those questions that you & others ask. Night is falling & life goes on. I’ll have to start again, tomorrow, to look thru our docs. I’m also under pressure to get out our Board Meeting Minutes Draft to the other Board members. Be patient. I appreciate your help. Thank you.

Oh, that’s wonderful. I didn’t realize that our way of "debating & voting” was fairly common. Yes, I speak in informal language, “talking & deciding”. I’m new at this & am always learning. Of course, “debate & voting” is exactly what happens. Thanks for that word correction. Yes, I see what you’re saying that, “...it is in every sense of the word an "election" according to the rules in RONR. You, gentlemen, are helping me, so much. This General Discussion page is priceless. I’ve been in, half this day, writing & investigating our docs. Haven’t gotten much done, today. I’ll look for those 2 bullet points Mr. Martin asked for, tomorrow. It’s already night time! Thank you, all !

Let me try again. The owners (is that what you’re calling the “membership”?) elect a fellow owner to the Board at the annual meeting of owners. That’s it. They don’t elect an owner to any specific board position, just to get on the Board. Once on the board, all members talk & decide, amongst ourselves, who will get what position. It’s really those 5 Board members who decide who gets what position. Is that more clear?

Thank you for that, Mr. Martin. As you say, our board elects its own officers so the Board has the authority to remove those officers, including the President, as I’m now understanding you. I think I’m on the same page. Now, I have to go back & review our docs about your 2 bullet points. By experience, before I got on the Board 1.5 yrs. ago, 4 board members agreed to remove that Secretary from her position & ‘made her’ a member-at-large. She still stayed on the board & had board voting powers. From the outside, my just being a home owner, it looked like the Board majority ruled so whether they followed our doc rules or not, they did it that way. The problem here, is that our previous boards, on occasion, have done ‘illegal’ things, breaking from our document laws & doing what they want in order to get what they desire in the association, I’m sorry to say. I’ll look thru our docs & try to send you those answers that you’re asking for. Thank you.

Thank you for your patient explanation. So my President got her 1st term (2 years)as per my docs definition:The term of service of each member of the Executive Board, shall extend for a period of two (2) years.” 2 year ago, the President entered into her 3rd year in that position, mostly b/c no one wanted it except her. However, last year in Sept, @ the annual meeting, a fellow came forward & was elected to the Board while one of the Board members did not run again so that position opened & was filled by the owners electing him onto the Board. At that 1st Oct., ’23' Board meeting, he & I wanted him to be President. The existing President’ entered her 4th year on the Board last Oct.& is still, today our President. Last Oct, she wanted to maintain that position instead of the new fellow taking that position. 3 out of 5 Board members leaned her way & she continues as our President. Asking you directly now, the way I explain this above, must we keep her as President till this 2nd year of her 2nd term expires? Are you saying that it’s Kosher that she remains President & the present Board majority do not have the right to remove her by motion & vote within our Board? As I said, we do not have 2/3rds of our 68 units who would vote her off the Board as President but we have 3 out of 5 Board members that are ready to remove her as President but keep her on the board as, say, member-at-large. Thanks.

Yes, you are correct! I actually know what you’re saying... at the 1st Board meeting, there are board members but no officers yet. Got it & that’s why we discuss which positions we’ll fill amongst ourselves. Thank you.

Here’s where I need your help, Mr. Honemann (well, I need a lot of help (ha)). Let me embarrass myself further. You’d like me, "to quote... relating to terms of service of officers as well as members of the Board”. Service of officers and members of the Board are the same thing, to my mixed up mind. Apparently, they’re not. Patience, Mr. Honemann. What’s the difference? Thank you.

OK, Mr. Kapur, I’m in over my head! When you say, "The term of office as a director is, apparently two years”. Here’s my first misunderstanding: In this case, I think the President is a director and has 2 years, only, in that position. Am I right or wrong? When I was asked by another gentleman in this thread to quote exactly what our docs say, I was corrected by that line quoted from our docs, "The term of service of each member of the Executive Board, shall extend for a period of two (2) years.” What I said just several entries back was a misunderstanding on my part. Each time you fellows ask me a question, I’m learning as you’re bringing me thru this. So, when I said awhile back, that there were no term limits, it looks like I was wrong. My mistake.

Mr. Katz, Thank you for your patience. I am surely not an expert but am trying to understand our docs better& I appreciate your advice., all of you who are helping me! The job of the President, quoted from our docs”:3.2 President The President shall be the Chief Executive Officer of the Association. The President shall preside at all meetings of the Association and the Executive Board. The President shall have all of the general powers and duties which are usually vested in the office of President of an organization, including but not limited to the power to appoint committees from among the unit Owners from time to time as may in the President’s discretion be appropriate to assist in the conduct of the affairs of the Association." As to your comment that Board members can’t call lawyers & tell them what to do: In our case, the majority often wants to simply ask questions to clarify association docs & legal details that this Board is stuck on, like this grill situation I’ve been talking about. We simply want guidance from our lawyers. The President won’t ask them b/c it costs money. She's baffled, too, RE this grill issue but when things happen like this, she just goes by her (misguided) instincts, even if she’s biased about allowing (or not) grilling at the association. She, apparently, deeply believes in her gut ideas whether they’re in line w/our docs or not-4 yrs. of this behavior. So, she doesn’t want us, the Board majority, to get the answers from our lawyers so she tells them not to take calls from us. Rather, she wants us to blindly follow what she thinks-crazy! We could be breaking rules & putting the Board & the association in serious peril with resulting liabilities if we DID have a grill fire. She is the channel of communication but she’s also prone to misuse what powers she may have to her advantage. She also does this behavior w/our property manager resulting in lots of confusion amongst Board members & owners. RE removing the President: Let me re-state - Our community is apathetic. Even if we could get owners to engage in this removal, I believe we have to get 2/3rds of our 68 units to vote that way, in order to vote the President off as President. We do not have that 2/3rds vote. We’re short about 20 owners, or so. So, does the Board just have to put up with this President’s ways? RE my parenthetical: you think right & you say that practice needs to stop. I haven’t mentioned this yet. Maybe it makes a difference. Our docs have Board positions that open each year, staggering our 5 positions from year to year: ie-last year, there were 2 positions that were open to owners if they wanted to run for the Board. This year, there will be 3 positions that will open to owners if they want to run for the Board. Next year, there’ll be 2 Board positions that owners can run for the Board if they wish & so on. I want to follow RONR practices. In my case, it’s matter if ignorance & I’m trying to change that by engaging with those who have a mastery of RONR principles. I hope I’ve clarified what’s going on & thank you.

Whoa! Thanks for specifying, not that I know the difference. Please forgive me, everyone who’s engaging w/me on this tread. I misspoke. Below, is my shocking discovery. If the wording means each Board member only gets 2 years in their existing position & then shifts board positions w/other same Board members (b/c no one ran for the board) then this president shouldn’t still be president. She’s about to complete (in Sept) her 4th year anniversary, as such. Here’s the exact wording from our docs: “2.5 Term The term of service of each member of the Executive Board, shall extend for a period of two (2) years.” That’s the whole quote! The way it’s been happening for 40 years is, whoever’s elected, (or no one runs for the Board), amongst the present iteration of the Board & after the annual meeting (every Sept.) each present Board member, pick what position we want & discuss why. After the Sept. annual meeting & at our 1st Oct. Board meeting, the ‘president' argued to stay in the president’s position. We eventually all agreed. I guess bad habits die hard, also, ignorance is bliss (not in this case). Wow, have you opened my eyes! What do you make of what I’ve quoted & said? Thank you!

While I have your generous attention... about this same president on my Board, she’s given instructions to our association condo lawyers and insurance broker, NOT to talk to us, the Board majority & they follow her instructions. Essentially, she’s blocking them from us. I believe that she doesn’t have the power to do that but she’s gotten away with that behavior, previously, b/c she used to be in the Board majority. Nothing in our docs say that she cannot do this behavior so she assumes behavior that she wishes to have & exercises it. Can you straighten me out about her blocking our lawyers/insurance broker from us, the Board majority, or any one else on the Board?Thank you.

I’ll go look up exact wording in the docs & write back. Much of what the docs seem to do, they’re 40 years old, is NOT mention actions or give scenarios in some association situations. It’s like they didn’t have the lawful knowledge/imagination of association laws at that time. We do not have any limiting term of officers (do you believe that?) I’ll look for the phrasing, though. As you’ve stated, yes, the Board amongst itself, technically, is electing specific Board positions. The owners/membership, only elect a person/owner to the Board, not for a position. Outsiders may say, Who are you electing to be President on the Board, this year?”, but that’s not how our docs are set up. It is as you say, “...the board is, seemingly, the electing body for the presidency, not the membership...”. Correct, the Board members remove the president from that position but she stays on the Board & still has a vote & say on the Board, like the other 4 Board members, on a Board of 5. Thanks.