Motion by a Subcommittee rejected by the Board, what does the subcommittee do with it?

[Guest Steve]

I've been searching for an answer to my issue, and I've not found a specific thread on this, so I'm posting a new topic. If it's duplicative, I apologize.

I'm the Secretary for a Committee that recommended the Board take action on a topic. The Board rejected the proposal. Because of our process and procedures, the Board should have provided some guidance on a process that was violated (The Board is only tasked with ensuring process was followed by procedure), however no guidance/reasoning was provided by the Board.

My committee was asked to look at the topic again and come up with another recommendation (could be the exact same with additional background/information). Does my committee need to make a motion to reconsider the previously approved motion? Or does the Board action to reject that recommendation effectively kill the motion, requiring a new motion to be made by my Committee?

 

 

[Josh Martin]

9 minutes ago, Guest Steve said:

Does my committee need to make a motion to reconsider the previously approved motion?

No.

11 minutes ago, Guest Steve said:

Or does the Board action to reject that recommendation effectively kill the motion, requiring a new motion to be made by my Committee?

Yes.

[Guest Steve]

Thanks!

I have some cantankerous individuals on my committee that are saying any motion is invalid except a motion to reconsider (and absent that we should just send the same information to the Board). Can you point me to where in RROO it says this motion is effectively killed?

[Josh Martin]

56 minutes ago, Guest Steve said:

I have some cantankerous individuals on my committee that are saying any motion is invalid except a motion to reconsider (and absent that we should just send the same information to the Board). Can you point me to where in RROO it says this motion is effectively killed?

I don’t quite understand what the confusion is. The motion is not “effectively” killed, it is killed.

1 hour ago, Guest Steve said:

The Board rejected the proposal.

“if the assembly expressly decides against doing what the motion proposes, the motion is lost, or rejected.” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 33)

I suppose their quibble is that the committee is a separate body from the board. Since the board is the superior body, however, it seems that the motion is rejected just as much so (and arguably even more so) than if it was rejected by the committee. Furthermore, the board explicitly instructed the committee to “look at the topic again and come up with another recommendation.” Committee instructions are binding.

“Instructions to the committee can also be included in the motion to Commit, whether the committee is to be a standing or a special one, or a committee of the whole. These instructions, which are binding on the committee, may involve such matters as when the committee should meet, how it should consider the question, whether it should employ an expert consultant, and when it should report.” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 172, emphasis added)

Edited February 13, 2020 at 09:38 PM by Josh Martin

[Guest Steve]

The instructions didn’t come from the Board. We are struggling because they rejected then did nothing officially. The “instructions” are really guidance from the Board secretary who realized the Board hasn’t done their job. 
 

and yes. The issue is being raised because  individuals on my committee believe that even though the motion was rejected, it wasn’t fully proper since no formal direction was provided. If the Board action wasn’t complete, then my committees motion is still valid and can only be reconsidered. 

[Josh Martin]

51 minutes ago, Guest Steve said:

The instructions didn’t come from the Board. We are struggling because they rejected then did nothing officially. The “instructions” are really guidance from the Board secretary who realized the Board hasn’t done their job. 
 

and yes. The issue is being raised because  individuals on my committee believe that even though the motion was rejected, it wasn’t fully proper since no formal direction was provided. If the Board action wasn’t complete, then my committees motion is still valid and can only be reconsidered. 

The board isn’t required to give any direction after rejecting a motion. The board’s action was complete when it rejected the motion. It isn’t required to do anything else.

So it appears the “instructions” are just advice. Nonetheless, the motion was rejected by the board.

[Atul Kapur]

2 hours ago, Guest Steve said:

even though the motion was rejected, it wasn’t fully proper since no formal direction was provided. If the Board action wasn’t complete, then my committees motion is still valid and can only be reconsidered. 

There is nothing in RONR that supports these statements. If your organization has some special rules to support this, then you'll need to look to them for advice.

Under RONR, the board is the parent body and is free to reject the committee's recommendation without giving any reasons, just like my parents would reject my strong recommendation that I be allowed to stay out until 3 am: "Because we said so."

2 hours ago, Guest Steve said:

The instructions didn’t come from the Board. We are struggling because they rejected then did nothing officially. The “instructions” are really guidance from the Board secretary who realized the Board hasn’t done their job. 

If you were a special committee, then your committee has ceased to exist once it made its final recommendation to the board.

If you are a standing committee, you are free to follow the secretary's advice if you wish and believe it would be useful. Or, you could ask the board for instructions. Or, you could follow the lead of your passive-aggressive committee members. I'd recommend options one or two.

Edited February 14, 2020 at 01:40 AM by Atul Kapur

[Guest Steve]

12 hours ago, Atul Kapur said:

There is nothing in RONR that supports these statements. If your organization has some special rules to support this, then you'll need to look to them for advice.

Under RONR, the board is the parent body and is free to reject the committee's recommendation without giving any reasons, just like my parents would reject my strong recommendation that I be allowed to stay out until 3 am: "Because we said so."

and

From my original post "Because of our process and procedures, the Board should have provided some guidance on a process that was violated (The Board is only tasked with ensuring process was followed by procedure)." We do have procedures that state the Board is only to be looking at procedures, and if they disapprove something they are supposed to identify what procedure was violated. That did not occur. So some individuals on my standing committee (not a special committee) are arguing that our committee motion is still valid and can only be reconsidered because the Board did not fulfill their obligation. There are no procedures that cover this scenario (the assumption in the procedures is that the Board will do what they're supposed to do).

Where does RONR say a parent body is free to reject a committee recommendation, and that kills the motion (meaning the standing committee that made the recommendation has no motion to reconsider)?

 

[Josh Martin]

35 minutes ago, Guest Steve said:

From my original post "Because of our process and procedures, the Board should have provided some guidance on a process that was violated (The Board is only tasked with ensuring process was followed by procedure)." We do have procedures that state the Board is only to be looking at procedures, and if they disapprove something they are supposed to identify what procedure was violated. That did not occur. So some individuals on my standing committee (not a special committee) are arguing that our committee motion is still valid and can only be reconsidered because the Board did not fulfill their obligation. There are no procedures that cover this scenario (the assumption in the procedures is that the Board will do what they're supposed to do).

I am starting to wonder now if the rules in RONR are applicable to this situation.

Under the rules in RONR, a committee is fully subordinate to its parent assembly. The parent assembly may reject committee recommendations for whatever reasons it pleases, and is not required to provide any explanation for its decisions.

If your organization indeed has rules which say that “The Board is only tasked with ensuring process was followed by procedure” and that “if they disapprove something they are supposed to identify what procedure was violated,” then I suppose the organization itself will have to figure out what is supposed to happen in this situation, because RONR has no answer.

40 minutes ago, Guest Steve said:

Where does RONR say a parent body is free to reject a committee recommendation, and that kills the motion (meaning the standing committee that made the recommendation has no motion to reconsider)?

I don’t know that it matters. I don’t know that your “boards” and “committees” are  “boards” and “committees” in the sense that RONR uses these terms.

[Atul Kapur]

54 minutes ago, Guest Steve said:

From my original post

It was not clear from your original post whether this was being done as a custom or whether there were actually any written rules to back this up. As I said, if you are depending on these rules, then you will have to look to them for advice rather than RONR. We, or at least I, can't comment knowledgeably on just a paraphrase of your rules.

54 minutes ago, Guest Steve said:

the assumption in the procedures is that the Board will do what they're supposed to do).

Which takes me back to the second option I offered you: go back to the board and get what you need from them.

54 minutes ago, Guest Steve said:

Where does RONR say a parent body is free to reject a committee recommendation, and that kills the motion

Mr. Martin gave you that citation earlier in this thread. A committee recommendation is just a motion at the board, like any other motion that comes before the board.

Edited February 14, 2020 at 02:48 PM by Atul Kapur

[Atul Kapur]

3 hours ago, Guest Steve said:

Where does RONR say a parent body is free to reject a committee recommendation, and that kills the motion (meaning the standing committee that made the recommendation has no motion to reconsider)?

If you need more of an answer, see §51. REPORTS OF BOARDS AND COMMITTEES starting on p. 503.

It explains that, "When a board or committee report has been received and the chair has stated the question on the adoption of the motion, resolution(s), recommendation(s), or report ... the matter is treated as any other main question ..." (RONR 11th ed., p. 509, lines 2-8).

As Mr. Martin stated earlier, with any main question

20 hours ago, Josh Martin said:

“if the assembly expressly decides against doing what the motion proposes, the motion is lost, or rejected.” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 33)

It would also be helpful to review §50. COMMITTEES which notes that, "Generally the term committee implies that, within the area of its assigned responsibilities, the committee has less authority to act independently for the society (or other constituting power) than a board is usually understood to have" (p. 490, lines 8-11).

And, p. 486, lines 2-4 says that committees of the board, "are genuinely subordinate to the board and must ordinarily report back to it for authority to act."

[Gary Novosielski]

9 hours ago, Guest Steve said:

From my original post "Because of our process and procedures, the Board should have provided some guidance on a process that was violated (The Board is only tasked with ensuring process was followed by procedure)." We do have procedures that state the Board is only to be looking at procedures, and if they disapprove something they are supposed to identify what procedure was violated. That did not occur. So some individuals on my standing committee (not a special committee) are arguing that our committee motion is still valid and can only be reconsidered because the Board did not fulfill their obligation. There are no procedures that cover this scenario (the assumption in the procedures is that the Board will do what they're supposed to do).

Where does RONR say a parent body is free to reject a committee recommendation, and that kills the motion (meaning the standing committee that made the recommendation has no motion to reconsider)?

 

Your group does not appear to be using Robert's Rules at all.  Under RONR, a committee is subordinate to the body to which it reports.  It has no power except to generate recommendations, often in the form of motions, to the parent body for its consideration.  At that point, its role ends.  The parent body may accept, reject, amend, postpone, or ignore outright, the recommendations of its committee.  It owes the committee no explanation for its actions.  It may choose to recommit the matter to the committee with or without further instructions, which are binding on the committee.

So whatever you  are doing under your own rules bears so little resemblance to normal parliamentary procedure that I don't see how we, as much as we wish to, are going to be able to be of much assistance.