Accounting for proxy votes

[Tomm]

I know RONR doesn't approve of proxy votes but I'm wondering with your experience, have you seen how the votes are counted or accounted for when a vote is taken?

I'm not referring to a convention with registered delegates but a normal general membership meeting. 

How is the vote tally determined when a member or several members may be holding numerous proxy votes? 

Obviously a simple voice vote or show of hands doesn't account for the proxies a member may be holding.

Perhaps that's why RONR doesn't endorse proxies? 🙂 

[Josh Martin]

On 8/18/2022 at 3:46 PM, Tomm said:

I know RONR doesn't approve of proxy votes but I'm wondering with your experience, have you seen how the votes are counted or accounted for when a vote is taken?

I'm not referring to a convention with registered delegates but a normal general membership meeting. 

How is the vote tally determined when a member or several members may be holding numerous proxy votes? 

Obviously a simple voice vote or show of hands doesn't account for the proxies a member may be holding.

I don't have much experience with this personally, but generally it would seem to me one of the following methods would be used:

• A ballot vote (with appropriate modifications)
• Some form of electronic voting system
• A roll call vote

Conceivably, other methods might be plausible if there is not too much variation in the numbers of votes. If, for instance, the range is something like 1-3 votes, perhaps voting cards of different colors could be used.

On 8/18/2022 at 3:46 PM, Tomm said:

Perhaps that's why RONR doesn't endorse proxies? 🙂 

No, the reason is because proxy votes are incompatible with the characteristics of a deliberative assembly. (Although the logistical difficulties certainly don't help.)

[Termination Requested Pls]

On 8/18/2022 at 3:46 PM, Tomm said:

I know RONR doesn't approve of proxy votes

[snippage]

Perhaps that's why RONR doesn't endorse proxies? 🙂 

From my reading of RONR, this is not accurate. I would keep in mind the following verbiage from RONR:

RONR (12th ed.) "45:56 Absentee Voting. It is a fundamental principle of parliamentary law that the right to vote is limited to the members of an organization who are actually present at the time the vote is taken in a regular or properly called meeting, although it should be noted that a member need not be present when the question is put. Exceptions to this rule must be expressly stated in the bylaws. Such possible exceptions include: . . . (b) proxy voting."

RONR 45:70-71 - "Proxy Voting. A proxy is a power of attorney given by one person to another to vote in his stead; the term also designates the person who holds the power of attorney. Proxy voting is not permitted in ordinary deliberative assemblies unless the laws of the state in which the society is incorporated require it, or the charter or bylaws of the organization provide for it. Ordinarily it should neither be allowed nor required, because proxy voting is incompatible with the essential characteristics of a deliberative assembly in which membership is individual, personal, and nontransferable. In a stock corporation, on the other hand, where the ownership is transferable, the voice and vote of the member also is transferable, by use of a proxy. But in a nonstock corporation, where membership is usually on the same basis as in an unincorporated, voluntary association, voting by proxy should not be permitted unless the state’s corporation law—as applying to nonstock corporations—absolutely requires it.

If the law under which an organization is incorporated allows proxy voting to be prohibited by a provision of the bylaws, the adoption of this book as parliamentary authority by prescription in the bylaws should be treated as sufficient provision to accomplish that result (cf. 56:49n1)."

 

I raise this because I participate in another forum where parliamentary rules come up a lot. Too often someone posts at this other forum that the members at robertsrules.forumflash insisted that Robert's Rules prohibits proxies (or this is the poster's takeaway, anyway). "Doesn't approve of" or 'doesn't endorse' does not IMO capture what RONR says on the topic. Robert's Rules RONR in fact says, in so many words, "Okay; proxies are fine for stock corporations." The line above from RONR:

 In a stock corporation, on the other hand, where the ownership is transferable, the voice and vote of the member also is transferable, by use of a proxy. 

is buried and overlooked too often IMO. Homeowners' associations and for-profit corporations like Johnson and Johnson are both stock corporations. Proxies have a long tradition at such corporations. Robert's Rules most certainly does "approve" of and endorse proxies for stock corporations, AFAIC.

Where are proxies not used? City Councils, County Commissions, state legislatures, and the U. S. Congress, to name a few. I think the reasons for the distinction between the two entities (nonstock corporations and stock corporations), when it comes to proxies, should be obvious.

[Atul Kapur]

In my experience, for important questions or those anticipated to be controversial, an electronic vote is conducted initially. Otherwise, a show of hands vote is done (this is in Canada, where that is generally the regular method of voting) and a counted vote is held if the show of hands is not overwhelmingly clear.

As electronic voting becomes more familiar and quick to provide results (even with proxy voting and the resulting adjustments required), it is increasingly being used for all votes.