Defeated Main Motion

[Chris Warren]

In a recent meeting of our presbytery, we voted on proposed constitutional amendments. The vote was a tie, meaning the motion to approve the amendments failed. After the meeting, members of the presbytery asked for a called meeting to determine whether a member of the body that day had voted legally. He was a member of our presbytery and was being transferred to another, but hadn't been received there yet. At the called meeting, the moderator ruled that his vote was out of order and that we would need to revote on the proposed amendments at our next adjourned meeting.

The ruling was appealed to a higher judicatory (synod), and at that judicatory the motion was made to declare the minister's vote to be out of order. That motion was defeated. 

For other reasons this ruling was appealed to another higher judicatory (Our denomination's Permanent Judiciary Committee). Part of the opinion of that judicatory was that since the motion made was defeated, no action took place. That judicatory then did not discuss whether the original vote was out of order or not.

Is it true that when a motion is defeated that means no action has been taken? I found in another question on this forum that in the case of whether a defeated motion should be recorded in minutes, "defeated motions constitute a decision of the assembly."

My stance is that since the Synod ruled that the vote was not out of order, the original vote should stand. If it is to be overturned that would require rescinding an action already taken, since voting on the constitutional amendments required reporting to another body (our General Assembly). That means even though the motion to approve the constitutional amendments was defeated, an action occurred.

Thank you in advance for your insight. I am having trouble finding an answer to this situation.

[Josh Martin]

On 4/18/2024 at 3:07 PM, Chris Warren said:

The vote was a tie, meaning the motion to approve the amendments failed.

Well, this is certainly correct, but ordinarily a tie vote on a constitutional amendment means the amendments failed by a wide margin, as typically amending the constitution requires a higher vote (such as a 2/3 vote).

Is a majority vote sufficient to amend your constitution?

On 4/18/2024 at 3:07 PM, Chris Warren said:

Is it true that when a motion is defeated that means no action has been taken?

No.

On 4/18/2024 at 3:07 PM, Chris Warren said:

I found in another question on this forum that in the case of whether a defeated motion should be recorded in minutes, "defeated motions constitute a decision of the assembly."

Yes, this is correct. By defeating a motion, the assembly has decided not to do whatever the motion proposed. In this case, the assembly voted not to approve the constitutional amendments.

On 4/18/2024 at 3:07 PM, Chris Warren said:

My stance is that since the Synod ruled that the vote was not out of order, the original vote should stand.

This seems reasonable to me.

On 4/18/2024 at 3:07 PM, Chris Warren said:

If it is to be overturned that would require rescinding an action already taken, since voting on the constitutional amendments required reporting to another body (our General Assembly). That means even though the motion to approve the constitutional amendments was defeated, an action occurred.

Well, this isn't the sort of "action" that RONR has in mind. But in any event, I am inclined to agree that, based upon the facts presented, what happened is:

• The moderator ruled that the vote was invalid and a new vote must be taken.
• This was appealed to a higher body, which ruled that the vote was valid and it stands.
• This was appealed to an even higher body, which appears to have ignored the question.

RONR does not have a multi-step appeal process like this and therefore does not address this issue, but I think you are correct that the decision of the highest body which ruled on this issue stands as the judgment on this matter at this time.

I do not agree, however, that anything would need to be "rescinded" in this matter. When a motion is defeated, the motion may be introduced anew, under the appropriate procedures. The motion to Rescind is applicable with regard to adopted motions. And if there is a concern regarding validity, a Point of Order and Appeal are the appropriate route to handle that. (This appears to have already occurred, and the determination was that the vote was valid.)

Edited April 18, 2024 at 08:27 PM by Josh Martin

[Chris Warren]

Thank you. You are correct that the threshold for passing the amendments is higher than 50%, but that is based on the number of presbyteries in the church. Each presbytery's vote is simple majority, but 75% of the presbyteries must approve amendments for them to become part of our constitution.

I think I understand your response about the ability to bring the motion again. I may not have given you all pertinent information. The vote on the amendments was referred to each presbytery from the General Assembly from 2023. It is to be reported back to General Assembly by this June. We took a vote by secret ballot at our Fall meeting. It wasn't a simple motion to adopt the amendments, but a planned secret ballot that all knew was coming before the body. That is why I understood this to be a positive action taken that would have to be overturned by rescinding the action.

Thanks again for your time.

[Josh Martin]

On 4/18/2024 at 5:22 PM, Chris Warren said:

You are correct that the threshold for passing the amendments is higher than 50%, but that is based on the number of presbyteries in the church. Each presbytery's vote is simple majority, but 75% of the presbyteries must approve amendments for them to become part of our constitution.

Okay. So to be clear, this particular vote at issue required only a majority vote, and therefore, the one vote at issue may have made a difference.

On 4/18/2024 at 5:22 PM, Chris Warren said:

I think I understand your response about the ability to bring the motion again. I may not have given you all pertinent information. The vote on the amendments was referred to each presbytery from the General Assembly from 2023. It is to be reported back to General Assembly by this June. We took a vote by secret ballot at our Fall meeting. It wasn't a simple motion to adopt the amendments, but a planned secret ballot that all knew was coming before the body. That is why I understood this to be a positive action taken that would have to be overturned by rescinding the action.

I understand why you may have thought this, but nonetheless, the fact remains that defeating a motion is not "a positive action taken that would have to be overturned by rescinding the action."