Do I record lost motion in the Minutes?

[Guest L.J.B.]

Hello! At the Council meeting yesterday, main motion did not receive mover and seconder, therefore it was not voted on. Is this motion considered lost? Do I still record it in the Minutes? If yes, in which form? Thanks!

[Joshua Katz]

I don't understand. If it was not moved, in what sense is it a motion?

[Guest L.J.B.]

Thanks Joshua! I see what you mean - there is no motion to record. I was just thinking, because it was on the floor do I still want to have a record of it in Minutes with an explanation that the motion was lost?

[Atul Kapur]

On 7/4/2024 at 11:02 AM, Guest L.J.B. said:

because it was on the floor

I'm confused by the terms you are using. Under RONR , the terminology and order of operations is

1 - motion is moved

2 - motion is seconded

3 - motion is stated by the chair

and it is this third step that puts the motion on the floor = open for debate.

It sounds to me like someone had given notice that this motion would be made but, when the time came, no one did. If that's the case, then the motion never existed as it was never actually made/moved. In this situation, there would not have been any discussion on the topic.

Alternatively, and taken from the way you describe things, was there a discussion on a topic but, after the discussion, no one moved the expected motion?

[Guest L.J.B.]

Thank you, Atul! And sorry, probably should've given more details firsthand.

We did the things bit backwards yesterday. The Chair did step 3 first, then looked for mover and seconder which was not obtained. Oh, there was a big, heated discussion on the topic first, then Chair just went ahead and stated the motion, but got no mover. So that whole situation confused me a bit, and am wondering now how much to put in Minutes.

Thank you for your help! I feel it's best to take out the stated motion from the Minutes all together.

[Atul Kapur]

On 7/4/2024 at 11:57 AM, Guest L.J.B. said:

We did the things bit backwards yesterday. The Chair did step 3 first, then looked for mover and seconder which was not obtained. Oh, there was a big, heated discussion on the topic first, then Chair just went ahead and stated the motion, but got no mover.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking might have happened (my "alternatively" above) because its all too common. 

The problem with doing it that way and the reason it is discouraged is that council spends a lot of time without getting anywhere -- as you experienced (See below for more about the rationale).

Under RONR rules, you do not include any of this in the minutes. Minutes record what was done, not what said; nothing was done here.

If that is unacceptable to your council, you could list the topic and then say something like, "After discussion, no motion was made."

 

RONR (12th ed.) 4:8 discourages this way of proceeding because of the time consumed without any outcome (i.e., "wasted"). I've copied the entire paragraph but will highlight the last sentence: "The general rule against discussion without a motion is one of parliamentary procedure’s powerful tools for keeping business “on track,” and an observance of its spirit can be an important factor in making even a very small meeting rapidly moving and interesting."

 

Quote

4:8 For a member to begin to discuss a matter while no question is pending, without promptly leading to a motion, implies an unusual circumstance and requires permission of the assembly (see

33:22) in addition to obtaining the floor. In larger assemblies, this rule requires firm enforcement. In smaller meetings, it may sometimes be relaxed with constructive effect if the members are not accustomed to working under the standard rule. Unless the assembly has specifically authorized that a particular subject be discussed while no motion is pending, however, such a discussion can be entered into only at the sufferance of the chair or until a point of order is made; and in the latter case, the chair must immediately require that a motion be offered or the discussion cease. The general rule against discussion without a motion is one of parliamentary procedure’s powerful tools for keeping business “on track,” and an observance of its spirit can be an important factor in making even a very small meeting rapidly moving and interesting.6