Shmuel Gerber

On 10/30/2023 at 11:06 AM, Dan Honemann said:

On 10/30/2023 at 10:58 AM, Guest Lorraine said:

Good Morning Everyone 

I have a question.. Can anyone provide the section in Roberts Rule where I can find the information regarding adopting / confirming a proposed amendment into the existing bylaws as an amendment..

Thanks 

RONR, 12th ed, Sec.57

Good (next) morning, everyone.

Mr. Honemann, we've got to get you a Deluxe Edition keyboard so you can press the official “§” button. 🙂

On 10/30/2023 at 11:54 PM, Guest GMFM said:

If a meeting space is not provided, then what can be done?

You mean other than flogging the members of the programs committee on the Regional Executive Board?

On 10/30/2023 at 11:37 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

The chair can also allow the member to respond to factual questions raised later, but the member who made the motion is not entitled to enter again into debate until after every other member who wishes to speak in debate has had the opportunity to do so.

To clarify, by "questions raised later," I mean questions raised after the member who made the motion has yielded the floor after his speech in debate, but still while the pending motion is being debated (or at least before the motion has been put to a vote).

On 10/30/2023 at 11:00 PM, DKW said:

Actually, I have read quite a bit of stuff concerning Roberts but still find some issues confusing - hence why I am posting here. IF i had a complete understanding about everything - I would not be wasting your time or mine by posting here. Unfortunately, many individuals have different views and interpretations of Roberts - even the experts. And unless one lives and breathes it like some apparently do, it is not an easy and intuitive subject to get a handle on.  

I understand that, which is why I'm recommending that you start by reading the official In Brief guide. In my opinion, that is a better way to get a handle on the basics than by attempting to get one question answered at a time in this forum — although you are welcome to try.

On 10/30/2023 at 11:00 PM, DKW said:

Our club, a hobby club of about 35 members, has always had an agenda format. Officers make reports and then old business is dealt with.

In Robert's Rules, there is no such category as "old business." If an item of new business is postponed or formally carried over from one meeting to the next, it is considered under unfinished business or general orders. If it is not formally carried over, then the assembly is finished with it, but it can be brought up again at another meeting as new.

On 10/30/2023 at 11:00 PM, DKW said:

When new business is arrived at, it is typical for a member to have placed an item on the agenda, usually a project they want permission to undertake, and at this point there are usually quite a few questions and back and forth discussion. Is it acceptable at that time to entertain those questions and discussions or should the member simply give their description, followed by a motion and second, and THEN any discussion about it should take place? In other words, can there be a give and take session when the member is stating what they want to do or should that wait until the discussion?

A member should think about what it is that he or she wants done — preferably before the meeting and in consultation with some other members — with enough clarity to make a proposal in the form of a motion. The member should make the motion at the meeting (after seeking and obtaining recognition from the chair) and pass a written copy to the chair, or submit a written copy to the secretary before the meeting. Before the member makes the motion, there should not be any debate, although the chair may guide some some brief discussion to come up with a properly worded motion.

After the chair restates the member's motion, the member is entitled to first preference in obtaining the floor, at which point he or she can explain the motion and speak in favor it. During this speech, the member may consent to be interrupted for questions while speaking. The chair can also allow the member to respond to factual questions raised later, but the member who made the motion is not entitled to enter again into debate until after every other member who wishes to speak in debate has had the opportunity to do so.

On 10/30/2023 at 11:00 PM, DKW said:

If the entire process above is backwards I would like to know how it SHOULD go so I can explain and try to convince the rest of the members that how it has been getting done has been wrong and in what ways can we bring it into line with proper procedure.

If Robert's Rules has been adopted, then at some point the members must have been convinced that it should be followed. If you are the president, you already were given the job of following those rules and you should not first try to convince the rest of the members of anything other than what the rules actually say. You do not need to make reference to improper procedures of the past, but simply explain what the correct procedure is.

On 10/30/2023 at 3:18 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

it would be nice if the minutes of the open session noted the time of adjournment, which would suggest returning from executive session first.

Robert's Rules does not mandate separate minutes of executive sessions. 

On 10/29/2023 at 3:56 PM, Joshua Katz said:

But there has been a great anti-democratic tendency in this country as of late, and RONR prescribes rules for conducting meetings as democratically as possible, so sometimes that is a tension. Following the rules is not to the liking of some people when it interferes with their power, particularly politicians.

Well, at least at the national level, I think there is still great respect shown for following the rules of order. For example, when a Democratic congressman recently wanted to interrupt a vote that wouldn't go his way, he knew better than to make a ruckus on the floor of the House. Instead, he pulled a fire alarm outside the chamber. 

On 10/30/2023 at 9:11 PM, DKW said:

 

So to clarify, when an item is on the agenda, we need to have a motion made (and seconded) to discuss the agenda item before any explanation about it or any other discussion about it can be conducted. Then it is voted on. Correct?

No. If you want to learn how a meeting is supposed to be conducted, you really ought to at least get a copy of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised In Brief and read it. Then you should come here to ask questions about anything you find confusing, or difficult to apply to a particular situation. 

First of all, a meeting does not need to have an agenda, as Robert's Rules contains a standard order of business that is adequate for the regular meetings of most organizations. 

Second, there are often reports from officers, boards, and committees, which may contain explanations and recommendations regarding particular items of business. At the appropriate point in the order of business (or as provided for on an agenda of a particular meeting), these reports may be delivered by the reporting officer or member without any motion first having been made on the subject. 

If any action is to be taken following such reports, or at the initiative of a member without a report having been given, then a motion to take the particular action should be made — not a motion to discuss the item. After the motion is made (and seconded if required), debate is had on whether or not to take the action proposed by the motion.

Finally, when the debate has ended, the motion is voted on by the assembly. 

On 10/30/2023 at 8:13 PM, DKW said:

However, In some information I have read, it almost makes it sound that any item on an agenda needs to have a motion made in order to proceed. And if approved, then it must be seconded, and THEN discussion is called for. But after talking this over with individuals whose knowledge in this area I somewhat respect, I was convinced that is NOT correct.

I suggest reading the official books.

The Robert's Rules method is motion first, then debate, then vote. 

On 10/30/2023 at 8:13 PM, DKW said:

So, exactly what is the place and purpose of calling for discussion when a motion has been made and seconded?

The purpose of debate is to hear reasons for or against adopting the motion, or suggestions for improvement (motions to Amend) or other subsidiary actions. 

On 10/18/2023 at 2:00 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

Abstentions are not votes, so 22 is a majority of the votes cast. Members who abstain are considered present, however. 

They are considered present because they are, in fact, present. 

On 10/18/2023 at 1:26 PM, Guest ALF said:

One person has 22 votes. One has 19. There were 4 abstentions. You need a majority to win. Is 22 a majority or do you count the abstentions in the total vote count. 

Abstentions are not votes, so 22 is a majority of the votes cast. Members who abstain are considered present, however. 

On 10/17/2023 at 9:35 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Presuming it came from a Bylaws Committee, then I think it would depend on how they report it out.  If it did not come from a committee, then you have no choice--it must be handled as individual amendments.  Revisions can only arise from a committee.

Even if there is no revision reported by a committee that has been authorized to draft a revised set of bylaws, a set of extensive changes may still be considered in the form of a substitute to the existing bylaws. However, if such a substitute is not an authorized revision, then any amendments proposed to the substitute while it is pending must be confined to the areas of change as compared to the existing bylaws and must not propose a greater change than that for which notice has been given. 

On 10/18/2023 at 6:56 AM, Atul Kapur said:

Special rules of order supercede RONR, so this could be adopted as a special rule using the standard vote threshold that applies. 

I agree. 

On 10/17/2023 at 11:38 PM, Gregory Carlson said:

“If the text of a main motion or proposed meeting standing rules was included with the call of the meeting, then the motion shall not be read at the meeting.  This rule may not be suspended.”

This seems like an exceptionally unwise rule. First of all, if you're simply trying to remove the right of an individual member to demand that the motion be read, then that is what the rule should say. There is probably no reason to forbid the text from being read, and there's almost certainly no reason to forbid suspension of the rule. 

I think this discussion has become a bit tangled because the OP's question included the premise shown in boldface here:

"When RONR is adopted by motion for a meeting (no PA specified in the bylaws), can a bylaw provision in the nature of a rule of order be suspended?"

Setting aside that premise, the question becomes "When no parliamentary authority is specified in the bylaws, can a bylaw provision in the nature of a rule of order be suspended?"

According to RONR:

"2:21    Rules of order—whether contained in the parliamentary authority or adopted as special rules of order—can be suspended by a two-thirds vote as explained in 25 (with the exceptions there specified). Rules clearly identifiable as in the nature of rules of order that are placed within the bylaws can (with the exceptions specified in 25) also be suspended by a two-thirds vote; but, except for such rules and for clauses that provide for their own suspension, as stated above, rules in the bylaws cannot be suspended."

This paragraph contains no caveat as to whether RONR has been adopted as the organization's parliamentary authority—whether in the bylaws, by a main motion applying to all meetings, or by a main motion applying to a single meeting—or not. So the answer is: According to RONR, yes. And, apparently, according to J. J., no.

The benefit of the assembly's having adopted RONR by motion for a meeting (where no PA has been specified in the bylaws) is not that RONR will supersede some conflicting provision in the bylaws—indeed, even when RONR is adopted in the bylaws it still does not supersede any conflicting provisions. Rather, the benefit of the assembly's having adopted RONR by motion for a meeting is that the assembly has expressed its desire to follow the rules in RONR, and so, to paraphrase RONR 2:18, what J. J. may have to say in conflict with the adopted parliamentary authority then has no bearing on the case. 🙂

On 10/7/2023 at 10:26 AM, Karen Luke said:

Rather than have the president (who only has 8 months in office left) APPOINT a person who never ran for any office EVER-shouldn't that position (2nd VP) filled by the next vote getter for that position (2nd VP) -Which by the way, only lost by 20 votes and held that position for 4 years previously. 

The president does not have the inherent authority to appoint persons to fill a vacancy, but may do so only if the bylaws provide that.

It would not be correct that the next vote-getter automatically fills the position. 

On 10/6/2023 at 7:42 AM, Atul Kapur said:

This refers to school boards (aka Board of Trustees) in Canada and, more specifically, Ontario.

Why? Because that's what the law governing them says. 

It was a specific answer to @Janis Arnold because I recall she is involved with a Canadian school board.

On 10/5/2023 at 7:42 PM, Atul Kapur said:

the fact that the Board itself is not allowed to meet in camera (= executive session) but CotW is, so many Boards understand the two terms (CotW and in camera/executive session) as synonymous. 

Then it seems particularly ill-advised that "Many of our school boards have in their by-laws that the Vice Chair, chair their Executive Sessions (in-camera)" because it would only lead to confusion on the trustees' part as to whether an executive session of the board is actually being held (under some exception to the general law) or an executive session of a committee of the whole is being held, in which case the actions of the committee are not the actions of the board. 

On 10/5/2023 at 2:26 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Strictly speaking, a quorum would not have been necessary for this motion, but to remove any question, it was easy enough to obtain. 

The presence of a quorum seems irrelevant, because a motion to adjourn does not require the presence of a quorum, whether one is speaking strictly or friendlily. If the maneuver was valid, it was valid without a quorum. And if it was invalid, any absentee whose rights were violated could make a fuss about it. 

On 10/5/2023 at 7:42 PM, Atul Kapur said:

the Board itself is not allowed to meet in camera (= executive session) but CotW is

What board, and why? 

It doesn't take a suspension of the rules for the regular presiding officer (and those next in line) to relinquish the chair, at least according to RONR 43:29, 47:11, and 47:13.

They certainly can willingly step aside; the only question is whether this is a violation of the bylaws and/or neglect of duty. 

RONR does not deal with "second readings" at all. If a legislative body finds them necessary, it should consult with parliamentarians and parliamentary authorities that do. Jefferson's Manual/House Rules and Mason's Manual come to mind. 

On 10/5/2023 at 10:14 AM, Guest Deb said:

An agenda listed an item in the constent agenda as - Resolution 2022-23 #17 Fire Alarm system.  In actuality, the Fire Alarm System was actually #18.  The Resolution is correct, but the agenda is wrong.  How do we go about correcting this?  Since the approval is the actual Resolution, and not the agenda, does anything need to be done?

Did the resolution itself have a number or just a title? If the resolution was numbered and titled, and the wrong number was given in the agenda, how can you be sure what was intended to be adopted? 

I would tend to agree that the members probably thought they were approving the resolution with that title, but it might be worthwhile for the chair to make a ruling on this question at the next meeting. 

On 10/5/2023 at 11:08 AM, Janis Arnold said:

Many of our school boards have in their by-laws that the Vice Chair, chair their Executive Sessions (in-camera).  Is there something in RONR that speaks to this also?

No. The regular chairman would chair any portion of a meeting held in executive session under the same conditions as any other part of a meeting. 

On 10/3/2023 at 9:08 AM, Weldon Merritt said:

is not counted as a vote for ether side

If we're going to pick on typos, perhaps this is the most interesting one. 

On 10/3/2023 at 12:02 PM, Atul Kapur said:

Just FYI, one province has that rule in the law for its city and town councils. I do not know their rationale for legislating it that way, which is the opposite of the rest.

Must be that old Victorian adage of "If you're not against us, you're with us."

On 10/3/2023 at 9:08 AM, Weldon Merritt said:

Under certain circumstances (if the required vote threshold is a specified portion of all members present or of the entire membership) an abstention may have teh same effect as a negative vote' but I know of no circumstance where it can have the effect of an affirmative vote.

There is, however, the situation where a member's failure to respond can cause a motion to be adopted, namely when the chair asks if there is any objection and no one raises an objection. 

But that is a different topic. 

Or as the Italian lawyer said, This motion is annul and avoid.