Electronic Voting

[Guest Brenda]

Our Faculty Senate is changing from voting for senators and senate chair elect from ballot to electronic voting. My question concerns is a quorum required? Out of the 200 members eligible to vote it could be possible that only 10 vote.....It would seem to me that some quorum number would need to be established to determine the number of votes required to win the election.

[Gary Novosielski]

Our Faculty Senate is changing from voting for senators and senate chair elect from ballot to electronic voting. My question concerns is a quorum required? Out of the 200 members eligible to vote it could be possible that only 10 vote.....It would seem to me that some quorum number would need to be established to determine the number of votes required to win the election.

According to RONR, a quorum never establishes how many votes are required to do anything.

A quorum merely indicates how many must be present during the conduct of business. Is this the form of electronic voting such as used in the House of Representatives and many state assemblies, where people vote in person, by pushing buttons? Or is this something that allows people to vote from remote locations without being present to constitute a quorum?

[hmtcastle]

My question concerns is a quorum required?

A quorum is always required.

[Guest Brenda]

According to RONR, a quorum never establishes how many votes are required to do anything.

A quorum merely indicates how many must be present during the conduct of business. Is this the form of electronic voting such as used in the House of Representatives and many state assemblies, where people vote in person, by pushing buttons? Or is this something that allows people to vote from remote locations without being present to constitute a quorum?

[alanh49]

A quorum is always required.

Not if the election is taking place outside the context of a meeting.

[Guest Brenda]

Yes, that is the question, if there is electronic voting, using a software program where those voting could vote by computer from various locations, would the bylaws need to designate quorum, to make the election valid?

[alanh49]

Yes, that is the question, if there is electronic voting, using a software program where those voting could vote by computer from various locations, would the bylaws need to designate quorum, to make the election valid?

No

[Gary Novosielski]

Not if the election is taking place outside the context of a meeting.

This is incorrect, according to RONR. No business, including elections, may take place outside the context of a meeting unless the bylaws provide for it. Such an election would be null and void.

[Gary Novosielski]

No

Actually,yes.

[alanh49]

This is incorrect, according to RONR. No business, including elections, may take place outside the context of a meeting unless the bylaws provide for it. Such an election would be null and void.

And I'll bet the bylaws or a higher rule to so provide remember this is an election, for the faculty senate, not by the faculty senate, and such elections almost never take place in a meeting.

So I stand by my no.

[Gary Novosielski]

Yes, that is the question, if there is electronic voting, using a software program where those voting could vote by computer from various locations, would the bylaws need to designate quorum, to make the election valid?

Well, before that, they have to explicitly authorize this sort of remote electronic voting. Then, they may have to revisit the question of a quorum depending on other factors. But a quorum is required for the conduct of all business.

First, is this strictly a "voting" program for use in elections only (substituting for mailed envelopes) or are you going to conduct business over the network? RONR prohibits both, but the remedies are easier for one than the other. You need to make sure the answers to questions that WILL arise in the future are included in your bylaws.

RONR prohibits teleconferencing, because it violates the basic principles of a deliberative assembly. But if each member is able to hear all other members, and able to seek recognition to speak, you can probably just authorize it without writing a lot of new rules. Does your software program include a voice link so that members can make motions and participate in debate? If so, you may be able to redefine what a "meeting" is in your bylaws, and allow RONR to cover this kind of meeting as well.

But, unless you do that or have done that, such "meetings" are null and void. And, since there are no rules in RONR on how to conduct business by remote link, it is up to you to write, or tweak, additional rules of order that may apply, which RONR could not have anticipated. And they need to be included in your special rules of order (or bylaws).

Also, if the use of these devices is considered a "meeting" in the bylaws, you mayl need to modify your quorum requirement to redefine what present means. Normally, in an unqualified form, it means physically present, with everyone in the same place. You may need to redefine it to include members using the software program. But ask yourself: is it possible to determine when a person is "present" using the software? If someone's connection drops, is that detectable by the rest of the "meeting"? Can the chair determine definitively whether a quorum is present or not, even if some members choose not to engage in debate and not to vote?

In all cases (other comments in this topic notwithstanding) business which occurs in the absence of a quorum is null and void. Even in cases where the casting of votes (when permitted by the bylaws) takes place at a polling location outside a meeting context, the actual tallying of votes and announcement of the result talkes place within the context of a properly-called meeting at which a quorum is present.

[Gary Novosielski]

And I'll bet the bylaws or a higher rule to so provide remember this is an election, for the faculty senate, not by the faculty senate, and such elections almost never take place in a meeting.

So I stand by my no.

Well, I'd rather quote RONR than wager on conjecture. You can stand by your no if you like, but at least it is no longer unqualified.

It still may be wrong, of course.

[Kim Goldsworthy]

Our Faculty Senate is changing from voting for senators and senate chair elect from ballot to electronic voting.

Unclear.

By "electronic voting", do you mean _____?

(a.) all will be present physically in one common meeting area, but instead of voting by VOICE or by RISING or by BALLOT, you will be using BUTTONS ON A GIZMO?

(b.) all will be absent from any common meeting area, and the voting will be done by either FAX, or E-MAIL, or TELEPHONE, or SKYPE or TWITTER?

My question concerns is a quorum required?

Yes.

While the casting of ballots can be done as members shuffle in and out of the common meeting area (and thus drop below the quorum threshold, as the ballots are being distributed, or as the ballots are being marked, or as the ballots are being collected), the chair cannot PUT THE QUESTION without a quorum, and the chair cannot ANNOUNCE THE RESULT OF THE VOTE without a quorum.

So, yes, a quorum is necessary.

No doubting of a quorum is allowed, under Robert's Rules of Order, once the chair begins the voting phrase and prompts the affirmative side, or once the chair begins the voting phase and orders the tellers to distribute or collect the ballots.

So, what do YOU mean by whether a quorum is necessary -- i.e., WHEN? WHAT PHASE?

Out of the 200 members eligible to vote it could be possible that only 10 vote.

• That is always true. -- You can't make people vote.

• That is never a problem. -- A vote of 1-0 or 0-1, in a room with 99 abstainers, is just as a valid a vote as 100-0 or 0-100. The number of people voting is a non-issue.

It would seem to me that some quorum number would need to be established to determine the number of votes required to win the election.

No, no, no!

You are confusing the concept of (a.) quorum; vs. (b.) majority vote.

As long as a quorum is present, then a vote of 1-0 or 0-1 is valid, even if all other members abstain.

• A majority vote is based on BALLOTS CAST.

• A majority vote is NOT based on POTENTIAL BALLOTS WHICH COULD HAVE BEEN CAST.

("... coulda ... woulda ... shoulda ...")

As always, if you are applying customized rules, and if Robert's Rules of Order does not apply, then your question isn't one about Robert's Rules of Order, but a question about what your rule is, what your rule means, and how to obey your rule, and how to apply your rule.

[Josh Martin]

Our Faculty Senate is changing from voting for senators and senate chair elect from ballot to electronic voting. My question concerns is a quorum required? Out of the 200 members eligible to vote it could be possible that only 10 vote.....It would seem to me that some quorum number would need to be established to determine the number of votes required to win the election.

A "quorum" does not establish a required number of votes which much be cast for an election to be valid. A quorum is the number of members who must be present when the results of the election are announced at the Faculty Senate meeting following the election. As noted, all forms of absentee voting are null and void unless your Bylaws provide otherwise.

Some organizations which use absentee voting do provide that a certain number of votes must be cast for the vote to be valid, but this is not required and should not be confused with the quorum requirement.