Counting votes

[Guest David]

Of 19 members voting-66% was required to pass, which would have been 13 votes in votes

The results were yes 12 no 6 spoilt ballot 1

The above was taken for the minutes on a vote. It failed to pass stated the chair person, as it only got 12 yes. I do believe the spoilt ballot lowers the winning number to 12 67%. Am I right?

In the same vote 2 proxies votes were counted too. Our contitution as no mentions of proxies votes in it, When pointed out, the chair still allow them to be used.

I believed this broke the contitution.

So what can you all tell me on this mastter and how to go about addressing it.

David

[Weldon Merritt]

Short answer: The chair's declaration that the motion failed, erroneous or not, stands.

Without knowing more about the nature of the "spoilt ballot," I cannot say whether it should have been excluded from the total votes cast, and if not, which way it should have been counted. But a vote of either 13-6 or 12-6 would exceed the 66% threshold; a vote of 12-7 would not.

If your constitution does not mention proxies, and assuming there is no higer level rule (such as an applicable statute) that requires they be allowed, they should not have been allowed; and those two votes clearly could have made a difference in the outcome.

So with at least one, and possibly two, errors, why do I say that the chair's declaration stands? Because either no one rasied a timely Point of Order or, assuming by "pointed out" you mean a Point of Order was raised, the chair's ruling was not appealed. But the motion may be made again at the next meeting. Just make sure it is done properly next time, including appealing an adverse ruling by the chair if necessary.

[Edited to change "12-19" to "12-7" in first paragraph.]

[Guest David]

The ballot in question was un marked in two votes in that meetig both times there was one unmark ballot.

When point out the counting of the blank ballot and the proxies I was repeating told by the board that I was wrong and they carryed on..

[tctheatc]

in that case, raise a timely point of order, and appeal it if need be. the assembly rules. and if it rules against you, you take your lumps and move on...

[David A Foulkes]

Generally speaking, abstentions (blank ballots or what you refer to as spoilt ballots) are not counted towards the total of votes cast. (RONR 11th Ed. p. 400 l. 11) Some exceptions exist, but I'll wager they don't apply here. (RONR 11th Ed. p. 403 ll. 13-18) As noted, proxies are not allowed either unless authorized in the bylaws or higher rules. (RONR 11th Ed. p. 428 ll. 30-34)

What's a little confusing is your use of 66% and 67% for voting thresholds. Typically, a motion that requires more than a majority vote requires a 2/3 vote (no reference to percentages). This means twice as many yes votes as no votes, of the votes cast, excluding blanks or abstentions (and in this case, unauthorized proxy votes). Thus, a vote of 12-6 adopts for a 2/3 vote. So, where are you getting the 66% and 67% from? Are those measurements indicated in your bylaws, or are you just using that method of reference to indicate a 2/3 vote?

[David A Foulkes]

But a vote of either 13-6 or 12-6 would exceed the 66% threshold; a vote of 12-19 would not.

I concur (unless it was a vote on an Appeal) although I suspect that 19 should have been a 7, yes?

[Weldon Merritt]

I concur (unless it was a vote on an Appeal) although I suspect that 19 should have been a 7, yes?

Yes, it should have. Thanks for the correction.

[Guest David]

Yes 2/3 of the vote out of 18 is 12 or 66.666 % , We meeting the board later this month to go over it again. Just need to drop from the count the blank ballot which was unmarked, We had two votes during tht meeting and twice some one handed in a unmarked ballot. In the minutes is wrtten as spoilt.

This caused a walk out and the loss of three members over it., We allow non members to sit in and have a say.

[Trina]

Yes 2/3 of the vote out of 18 is 12 or 66.666 % , We meeting the board later this month to go over it again. Just need to drop from the count the blank ballot which was unmarked, We had two votes during tht meeting and twice some one handed in a unmarked ballot. In the minutes is wrtten as spoilt.

This caused a walk out and the loss of three members over it., We allow non members to sit in and have a say.

Are the ballots still in custody? Also, unless this was a vote conducted by the board, the board has no authority to order a recount. See RONR (11th ed.) pp. 444-445 Sorry -- wrong citation -- I don't think the situation described in this thread involved an election.

However, the principle still applies that the board has no authority to try to repair errors that may have occurred at a general membership meeting.

[Guest David]

They are gone. I got a draft of the minutes and a file that reads like a board report on the meeting. It was a vote on allowing non members to vote during a church program which was passed by the memberss early in summer. The progam called for a vote on three options and allowing every one to vote members and non members alike,\

The draft has the vote numbers 6 no 12 yes 1 spoilt

there was a walk out at this point and in the minutes there no accepting moton accepting the numbers or seconders for the vote. Only a few heard there was a blank ballot and the chair say it fail to reach 13 votes.

Once the meeting go back on track sit was on to other busness.

[Trina]

They are gone. I got a draft of the minutes and a file that reads like a board report on the meeting. It was a vote on allowing non members to vote during a church program which was passed by the memberss early in summer. The progam called for a vote on three options and allowing every one to vote members and non members alike,\

The draft has the vote numbers 6 no 12 yes 1 spoilt

there was a walk out at this point and in the minutes there no accepting moton accepting the numbers or seconders for the vote. Only a few heard there was a blank ballot and the chair say it fail to reach 13 votes.

Once the meeting go back on track sit was on to other busness.

This does sound very unfortunate, but it's not a situation to be repaired by some retroactive application of Robert's Rules. As pointed out in your other thread, if the motion had been adopted, it could have been challenged later due to the improper inclusion of proxy votes. Since it was announced that the motion failed, however, there's no after-the-fact challenge which can be used to transform the failed motion into an adopted one. Moreover, even if the error could be undone after the fact, it is not appropriate for a board to try to repair errors that took place at a membership meeting -- that would be the responsibility of the membership.

As for the content of the failed motion, it may be worth pointing out that it is simply not possible, even by unanimous consent, to extend the right to vote during a meeting to non-members. I don't think that's what you were trying to do (as you seem to be speaking about a church program during which non-members and members would both be allowed to vote). However, I don't understand exactly what the 'program' was, or what 'options' the people would be voting on; so it looks as though there's a chance it might have been an improper attempt to give non-members a vote on organization business.