Is calling for a Division a right?

[Guest Jared]

I was recently part of a very large body (2-3,000). Usually there is an electronic system in place for recording votes; however, it was unavailable for some reason this year (inadequate preparation). At one point in the meeting, a division was called for after a voice and standing vote proved inconclusive. The ushers then proceeded to pass out punch cards that had to again be recollected and counted. Because of the disorganization, the entire process took 30 minutes for a 2.5 hour meeting with an extensive agenda to get through. Later on, another vote that was taken was extremely close. After both the voice and the standing vote, I and many others were in doubt. However, the chair ruled that the motion failed. One member called for a "division of the house"; however, the chair rules his motion to be "out of order". I am sure that he ruled it out of order purely out of necessity because he did not think we had the time to go through such a mess on voting again. But I am of the opinion that this vote was very important and could have very well actually passed. Do the members have any recourse in this situation? Is a fluted vote not the right of the member? Would our only choice had been to appeal the ruling of the chair and take another vote that would have been just as close, causing the same problem?

[Josh Martin]

I was recently part of a very large body (2-3,000). Usually there is an electronic system in place for recording votes; however, it was unavailable for some reason this year (inadequate preparation). At one point in the meeting, a division was called for after a voice and standing vote proved inconclusive. The ushers then proceeded to pass out punch cards that had to again be recollected and counted. Because of the disorganization, the entire process took 30 minutes for a 2.5 hour meeting with an extensive agenda to get through. Later on, another vote that was taken was extremely close. After both the voice and the standing vote, I and many others were in doubt. However, the chair ruled that the motion failed. One member called for a "division of the house"; however, the chair rules his motion to be "out of order". I am sure that he ruled it out of order purely out of necessity because he did not think we had the time to go through such a mess on voting again. But I am of the opinion that this vote was very important and could have very well actually passed. Do the members have any recourse in this situation? Is a fluted vote not the right of the member? Would our only choice had been to appeal the ruling of the chair and take another vote that would have been just as close, causing the same problem?

A member does have a right to call for the Division of the Assembly for an inconclusive voice vote, however, the effect of such a motion is to order a standing vote. If a standing vote is inconclusive and the chair does not call for a counted vote on his own initiative (which he should do), the assembly may order the vote to be counted by majority vote. I see no reason such a motion should have been ruled out of order (and I believe the motion for "a division of the house" could be understood as a motion for a counted vote), but yes, the proper course of action would have been to Appeal from the decision of the chair.

[Shmuel Gerber]

Is a fluted vote not the right of the member?

What is a fluted vote?

[Guest Jared]

Yes, that's what I thought. I believe the vote was well more than close enough to warrant a recorded vote. The only reason he did not is because of expediency. He saw the mess it was trying to pass out and collect the punch cards and new that time was a matter, so he would not allow a recorded vote. My only issue with this remedy is that it would like put us right in the same situation. If I had risen to appeal the decision of the chair, a vote would have been taken with those voting against (the side that the chair ruled in favor off) would have opposed the appeal (because they received their desired outcome) and those voting for the motion would have supported the appeal. It woud have been just as close in a voice and standing vote, and he likely would have ruled against the appeal and given no option of a recorded vote. It is so frustrating because the administration of the assembly (including the chair) should have had a better plan in place for such votes, and it is their negligence that caused this mess in the first place, and it feels as though the chair was only trying to minimize how much of a mess it appeared to be.

Also, "fluted" was a result of an autocorrect from my phone; however, I do not remember what the original word was. Perhaps, "recorded".