Guest Gene Stuffle Posted November 17, 2012 at 05:19 PM Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 at 05:19 PM I'm a member of the Curriculum Council at my university. After we approve our minutes, they're forwarded to the Dean's Council for "acceptance". There have been instances where the Deans have asked the Curriculum Council to make changes in our minutes before they will "accept" them. I'm inclined to think that the Curriculum Council's minutes are supposed to be a record of what actually happened at our meeting, not what someone else thinks should have happened. Is there anything in Robert's Rules covering this situation? If there is, I can't find it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted November 17, 2012 at 05:33 PM Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 at 05:33 PM I'm a member of the Curriculum Council at my university. After we approve our minutes, they're forwarded to the Dean's Council for "acceptance". There have been instances where the Deans have asked the Curriculum Council to make changes in our minutes before they will "accept" them. I'm inclined to think that the Curriculum Council's minutes are supposed to be a record of what actually happened at our meeting, not what someone else thinks should have happened. Is there anything in Robert's Rules covering this situation? If there is, I can't find it.This is absolutely correct, and the Deans' Council should knock off this practice of "accepting" the body's minutes. See RONR, 11th ed., pg. 468, lines 14-21. As noted, the records are a record of "what was done at the meeting" (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 468, lines 17-18, emphasis in original). They are most certainly not a record of what someone else thinks should have been done.As you read through the rest of that section, it's quite possible you'll find that you're putting too much in your minutes anyway, but that's an issue for another day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted November 17, 2012 at 05:34 PM Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 at 05:34 PM I'm a member of the Curriculum Council at my university. After we approve our minutes, they're forwarded to the Dean's Council for "acceptance". There have been instances where the Deans have asked the Curriculum Council to make changes in our minutes before they will "accept" them. I'm inclined to think that the Curriculum Council's minutes are supposed to be a record of what actually happened at our meeting, not what someone else thinks should have happened. Is there anything in Robert's Rules covering this situation? If there is, I can't find it.It is abnormal for another body to "accept" your minutes. A body approves its own minutes, period. If another body is unhappy with the minutes, the words of Rhett Butler come to mind, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a . . ." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted November 17, 2012 at 07:00 PM Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 at 07:00 PM After we approve our minutes, they're forwarded to the Dean's Council for "acceptance".And you put "acceptance" in quotation marks because . . . ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. J. Posted November 18, 2012 at 12:13 AM Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 at 12:13 AM The body meeting usually approves its own minutes. It would take some act of the Council to give the Dean any role in this. If it were to be a permanent approval, it would require a special rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gene Stuffle Posted November 18, 2012 at 08:02 AM Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 at 08:02 AM And you put "acceptance" in quotation marks because . . . ?Because that's the word they use. But to me, it isn't really what they're doing. If you tell someone to change their minutes, then you certainly aren't "accepting" them in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trina Posted November 18, 2012 at 12:43 PM Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 at 12:43 PM Because that's the word they use. But to me, it isn't really what they're doing. If you tell someone to change their minutes, then you certainly aren't "accepting" them in my mind.Ah, another chance (hopefully) to ask Guest_Stuffle a question... Is there some (written) rule that gives the Dean's Council this authority to review the Curriculum Council's minutes and to demand changes to those minutes? As others have pointed out, such a practice is foreign to RONR. However, an organization's own governing documents supersede the rules in RONR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted November 18, 2012 at 01:15 PM Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 at 01:15 PM The body meeting usually approves its own minutes. It would take some act of the Council to give the Dean any role in this. If it were to be a permanent approval, it would require a special rule.Nonetheless, a body approves its own minutes. If a separate body wishes to adopt the text of those minutes as its own statement, that's another issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted November 18, 2012 at 04:16 PM Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 at 04:16 PM Nonetheless, a body approves its own minutes. If a separate body wishes to adopt the text of those minutes as its own statement, that's another issue.If you're suggesting that the body approves its own minutes notwithstanding the organization's own rules on the matter, I disagree. I concur with J. J. that the organization could have a customized rule which gives another body a role in approving its minutes. I don't much care for the idea, but it could be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted November 18, 2012 at 04:28 PM Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 at 04:28 PM If you're suggesting that the body approves its own minutes notwithstanding the organization's own rules on the matter, I disagree. I concur with J. J. that the organization could have a customized rule which gives another body a role in approving its minutes. I don't much care for the idea, but it could be done.I have to admit that I once held the same opinion, until Dan assured me that the idea defied logic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted November 18, 2012 at 04:38 PM Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 at 04:38 PM I have to admit that I once held the same opinion, until Dan assured me that the idea defied logic. I'm not disputing that. We hear of organizations defying logic all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted November 18, 2012 at 04:52 PM Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 at 04:52 PM I'm not disputing that. We hear of organizations defying logic all the time.I think the principle is that any document not approved by the consent of the body that held a meeting is NOT what RONR refers to as the MINUTES of that meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted November 18, 2012 at 04:58 PM Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 at 04:58 PM I think the principle is that any document not approved by the consent of the body that held a meeting is NOT what RONR refers to as the MINUTES of that meeting.And what seems to be going on in this instance is that, after the body that held the meeting approves the minutes, the minutes go to a (presumably) superior body for acceptance (whatever the heck that may mean). So I'm not sure RONR has anything to add in this atypical situation.428nE3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gene Stuffle Posted November 18, 2012 at 10:30 PM Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 at 10:30 PM Ah, another chance (hopefully) to ask Guest_Stuffle a question... Is there some (written) rule that gives the Dean's Council this authority to review the Curriculum Council's minutes and to demand changes to those minutes? As others have pointed out, such a practice is foreign to RONR. However, an organization's own governing documents supersede the rules in RONR.There's no written rule that says anyone can demand changes. It's a question that has come up because there have been a couple of occasions wherein they wanted to remand the minutes for changes in wording. It's my opinion that they can reject the Council's recommendations all they want, but they can not retroactively change the minutes. Otherwise, they aren't minutes, are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted November 18, 2012 at 11:05 PM Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 at 11:05 PM It's my opinion that they can reject the Council's recommendations all they want, but they can not retroactively change the minutes. Otherwise, they aren't minutes, are they?Well, minutes can certainly be amended after they've been approved. Even months or years after though it should be an extremely rare occurrence. What's in question here (and it's a question no one here can answer) is just what authority, if any, the Deans Council has over the Curriculum Council.You could always stop sending them the minutes for "acceptance" and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted November 18, 2012 at 11:07 PM Report Share Posted November 18, 2012 at 11:07 PM There's no written rule that says anyone can demand changes. It's a question that has come up because there have been a couple of occasions wherein they wanted to remand the minutes for changes in wording. It's my opinion that they can reject the Council's recommendations all they want, but they can not retroactively change the minutes. Otherwise, they aren't minutes, are they?So far is RONR is concerned, it's quite right that a superior body should be focusing on the recommendations of the subordinate body, not focusing on its minutes. Unless the organization's rules provide otherwise, the Curriculum Council should approve its own minutes, although there is nothing wrong with the Curriculum Council making a change at a later date - provided that the purpose is to correct an error, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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