donrull Posted December 10, 2012 at 08:19 PM Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 at 08:19 PM We had an election, which I have referred to in another post, and 8 people were allowed to vote prior to the question being called and without the knowledge or consent of all but one board member. We called the question of electing Pastoral Search Committee members and new Board Members at the same time and on the same ballot. We have removed the 8 invalid illegal ballots and the recount affected one person from the Pastoral Search portion of the ballot.When we read Robert’s Rules it states that the ballot must be redone if a person is affected.My question reflects multiple comments that I received in other posts about this situation.It would stand to reason that if the ballots were done at the same time, then the entire ballot for both Pastoral Search and Board positions would be affected by the illegal vote recount, and the entire ballot that was called at one time would need to be redone, including all candidates.However, someone mentioned that we should only have to redo the portion of the ballot that was affected and not the entire ballot. Can someone present information on why this is the case as Robert’s Rules seems to make a very clear blanket statement about the ballot needing to be redone?In the same light, someone also mentioned that the individuals who were affirmed from the portion of the ballot that was affected would not need to run again. Similarly, can someone explain this? If the entire ballot must be redone, how can we take people who were affirmed off and only keep people who were not affirmed or were affected by the recount of illegal votes?Thank you!Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted December 10, 2012 at 08:49 PM Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 at 08:49 PM See p.416 l.34 - p.417 l.5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Lages Posted December 10, 2012 at 10:05 PM Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 at 10:05 PM I think I see the source of confusion here. If you back up one paragraph from the reference Edgar gave you to RONR, 11th ed. p. 416, ll. 27-33, you'll see that ballots identifiable as being cast by persons not entitled to vote (which is what I presume you are calling the early voters) are simply removed from the entire ballot count. They don't invalidate the ballot. And since you say that you removed the eight ballots from the early voters, you must have been able to identify those ballots.The rest of that paragraph deals with unidentifiable ballots cast by persons not entitled to vote. In that case, even if you know there are x number of ineligible voters, you don't know which ballots they have cast, so you can't remove those ballots. It is that situation in which RONR says your only recourse is to invalidate that entire ballot (or portion of a multiple-section ballot) if those x votes could have affected the results.And as a final comment, what you have are ballots cast be persons ineligible to vote, not illegal ballots. RONR makes a distinction, and treats them differently.(Note: I am presuming that treating these 'early' voters as persons ineligible to vote is appropriate here, even though they would clearly be eligible voters otherwise. If that's not the proper interpretation, I stand ready to be corrected.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
donrull Posted December 10, 2012 at 10:17 PM Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 at 10:17 PM Thanks for the reply!Unfortunately, we were unable to identify the illegally cast ballots. So, in this case it would be clear that we would have to invalidate the entire ballot. Since we voted for all positions at the same time on one ballot (which means the illegal votes would have affected the entire ballot), would this mean that both elections (for Pastoral Search and for Board Members) would have to be redone? If so, what happens to the inidividuals who believed they have been affirmed? I'm guessing it is obvious that they are not affirmed because the election was not valid, but just wanting to make sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted December 10, 2012 at 10:23 PM Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 at 10:23 PM Since we voted for all positions at the same time on one ballot (which means the illegal votes would have affected the entire ballot), would this mean that both elections (for Pastoral Search and for Board Members) would have to be redone?No. Think of each office as separate questions that just happen to be on the same piece of paper.If, for example, the president was elected by a ten-vote margin, disqualifying eight votes wouldn't affect the result. So he's in.If the secretary was elected by a five-vote margin, those eight invalid votes could have made a difference so you'll have to vote (for secretary) again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted December 10, 2012 at 10:41 PM Report Share Posted December 10, 2012 at 10:41 PM Think of each office as separate questions that just happen to be on the same piece of paper.I've got the nagging feeling I may have missed something here so stay tuned for any necessary corrections. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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