improperly counted vote -- then what?

[Laura Meade]

Hypothetical situation.

Assembly of 25 members.

A motion has an inconclusive voice vote. Division is ordered.  The chair asks for a show of hands and counts them, but clearly miscounts (he wants the motion to fail).  A member raises a point of order to say the vote was counted incorrectly and he moves that the vote be retaken and counted by tellers instead of the chair.  Here are my questions:

 

1. Can the member raise a point of order and make a motion at the same time, or does he have to wait for the chair to rule on the point of order and then appeal , and then make the motion?  Or, can he just hope he gets recognized to make the motion without the point of order?  Or can the member order that it be recounted -- without a formal motion? How does that work?

 

2.  I'm assuming they can recount the vote with another show of hands, based on what's on page 410 (RONR, 11th ed., p. 410, ll. 31-35).

 

"It should be noted that a vote is never retaken by the same form of voting, although, in a counted rising vote, a ballot, or a roll call, a recount of the votes or of the tellers' tabulations can be ordered to ensure that the count is precisely correct as reported." 

 

Does a counted show of hands count as a less formal counted rising vote, or do they need to go to a ballot vote to do the recount?

 

Thanks for your help.

[Gary c Tesser]

Why isn't Libran answering questions like this?

[Josh Martin]

1. Can the member raise a point of order and make a motion at the same time, or does he have to wait for the chair to rule on the point of order and then appeal , and then make the motion?  Or, can he just hope he gets recognized to make the motion without the point of order?  Or can the member order that it be recounted -- without a formal motion? How does that work?

The member can order a Division of the Assembly, which will force an uncounted rising vote. If that is also inconclusive, he can then move that a counted vote be taken by tellers, which requires a majority vote for adoption.

The member cannot raise a Point of Order on the grounds that the vote was not counted correctly. There are other tools for that purpose.

"It should be noted that a vote is never retaken by the same form of voting, although, in a counted rising vote, a ballot, or a roll call, a recount of the votes or of the tellers' tabulations can be ordered to ensure that the count is precisely correct as reported." 

 

Does a counted show of hands count as a less formal counted rising vote, or do they need to go to a ballot vote to do the recount? 

A rising vote and a show of hands vote, while similar, are not the same method. It is in order to demand a rising vote or to move for a counted rising vote. It would also be in order to move that the vote be retaken by ballot, but it is not required.

Additionally, after this is all over, disciplinary procedures against the chair may be warranted, if it is indeed the case that the chair intentionally miscounted the vote.

[Dan Honemann]

The member can order a Division of the Assembly, which will force an uncounted rising vote. If that is also inconclusive, he can then move that a counted vote be taken by tellers, which requires a majority vote for adoption.

The member cannot raise a Point of Order on the grounds that the vote was not counted correctly. There are other tools for that purpose.

 

In this case, a division vote was "ordered" (let's assume this means demanded), but the chair asked for a show of hands. Couldn't a point of order have been raised at that time that this was improper and that a rising vote must be taken?

[Josh Martin]

In this case, a division vote was "ordered" (let's assume this means demanded), but the chair asked for a show of hands. Couldn't a point of order have been raised at that time that this was improper and that a rising vote must be taken?

Yes, it could have been. I should have read this more carefully. In that case, the member would indeed wait for the chair's ruling (and possibly an Appeal) before proceeding with other motions, such as moving that a counted rising vote be taken by tellers.