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Gary c Tesser

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Everything posted by Gary c Tesser

  1. Dave, are these questions perhaps prompted by a real-life situation that you are familiar with; and do I detect a leaning on your part towards one side or the other? I ask because it looks as if the inevitable reply to all four (including the implicit question that precedes your "a" question) is, No, of course not, and anything else is absurd. So who can be saying anything in favour of these proposals, and what might be their rationale? (Are they an agent provocateur perhaps?) Or maybe I misunderstand. (Oh, and what makes this an Advanced Discussion question?)
  2. Gary c Tesser

    Ballot to Dissolve

    A few 4 AM thoughts for Guest Katydid. 1. You're looking at an antient version of RONR (maybe just old ROR). RONR, the editions since 1970, have chapters, and subordinate sections. I can't tell from here what information, assuming it's not outdated or even obsolete, you want to be citing. Do you at least have access to RONR, the current edition? 2. Your references to the Missouri statutes, and to incorporation, more than suggest that you need to consult a lawyer before a parliamentarian (or even an aspiring parliamentarian like me) (and maybe not the parliamenarian). 3. It might be minor (and at least too late to object, by a Point of Order, by now), but some of this might have been nipped in the bud by calling to order those who, by passing out pieces of paper and then distributing ballots, were disrupting the meeting (RONR 11th Ed., Sect. 43 "Rules Covering Debate": REfrain from Disturbing the Assembly, p. 394). Just don't let it happen again. 4. Where's your attachment (your 4th paragraph)? 5. If The Adversaries are getting a lawyer, then they're getting a lawyer. You can't stop them, and maybe you heard wrong. Lawyers cost money: how much money is it worth to them to dissolve your guild? be ready, though, to engage your own lawyer, if it comes to that. 6. "Since to Point of Order ruling went unchallenged isn't everything else moot?" ... Maybe , maybe not. At a minimum, if they hire a lawyer, that probably is their camel's nose under the tent. And , sorry, I'm too sleepy to run through the purely parliamentary considerations. With a little luck, one of the sleeping parliamentarians will get up, to add to (and likely correct some) of what I have said here. -- GcT
  3. Gary c Tesser

    Entering a motion to remove president

    I'm also having trouble with what Tom Coronite is. Removal of the president is an action by the board, not the membership. So it should be done not at a membership meeting, regular or special, but at a board meeting (a regular board meeting or a special board meeting, take your pick) -- so, generally, would not occur in front of all the members in the first place.
  4. Gary c Tesser

    Entering a motion to remove president

    In the spirit of comity, I would like to disagree as little as possible with the other esteemed posters, so I should have stopped typing 25 words ago (as of "typing"); yet my drive for the correction of injustices, though more often OCD, prevails. I'll start with disagreeing with Gary P. Novosielski (I find that so easy to type, at least until I get past the first four letters): let me propose a principle, or maybe just an axiom, though I can settle on a rotted plank: The most inept, sloppy, vague, inherently contradictory, incomprehensible bylaws take precedence over the parliamentary authority. I will assume that any responses will accept that statement, at least for the sake of this argument, or explicitly say not. So let's start. I think this is mistaken: -- or at least, incomplete and misleading, because ... ... which would be absurd, which Robert's Rules (among others) recommends against, in interpreting bylaws. Rather, what the bylaws do is offer more than one way of getting a meeting convened. One way is, the president calls for it. So forget that. The other way is, " Special meetings of the Executive Board may be called by the President and/or requested by other board members ." -- That is, requested of the the inimical president? Yeah, you got a case. ... Of whom, then? Well, how about the ultimate authority of an organization. So the "other board members" announce to the membership the special meeting that they are scheduling. ...So, how do we then tell conclusively whether the membership grants this request for a special meeting? They show up for it. [Edited, 20 April 2018, 6:16 AM EDT, to add:] (O nuts. This probably makes no sense. The regular membership isn't supposed to show up for a board meeting.)
  5. Gary c Tesser

    Null & Void Vote

    The minutes record what happened, proper or improper. That's what Robert's Rules says, and well said. Some anarchists suggest that marginal notes to explain the errors and the follow-ups can be helpful and won't bring the apocalypse any sooner. Just to nail this down, Ms Martell, you question is only about what the minutes say, yes? You are considering the motion to recall as an irretrievable mess, yes? You don't want any follow-up anyone is looking for, is there?
  6. Gary c Tesser

    Motion conflicts with previously adopted motion

    After not quite six months, would someone (anyone would do, but I think Paul McClintock would be ideal) please tell me at least whether Paul's question was answered; and it would be gravy to know what that answer was. George Mervosh says [I'm about to try to slickly cut-and-paste,* let's see what works] : [O lawsy me***, it worked.] But George, it is not another matter at all: if I understand correctly, it is precisely what Paul is asking about. The question is whether -- -- unambiguously, invariably, and not subject to the vagaries of parliamentary error if it happened that it were not adopted by the required threshold; or if, instead, the rule that any "vote required", if such an error is made (we are usually talking about a vote, like this one, that requires 2/3; and fails to get it; but the chair erroneously declares the motion adopted), will carry (unless a quick point of order snags it). (I'm thinking about votes requiring a majority of the entire membership, maybe, when you can't subsequently prove that a MEM was in the room; with similar sentiments in the clause on p. 349, lines 25-26 ) ____________ *Yes, grammar prigs, that's a comma fault. You know what you can do with yer fershtunkener college degrees, and any or all the propaganda they trepanned into your brain in junior high school.** **Slightly higher in Canada *** Gaelic-English slang for "Great Steaming Cobnuts"
  7. Whatever else would you expect?
  8. Gary c Tesser

    No Quorum

    Um, not quite. Note that Mr Martin said, signally: -- that is, not just the first meeting at which you have a quorum. To amend the bylaws (such as, say, to to make the quorum more achievable), you have to follow punctiliously * the procedure specified in the bylaws themselves. I point this out because typically (and sensibly), amending the bylaws requires previous notice of the intention, so the meeting notice has to mention it. ___________ * I acquired that word maybe in junior high school, and remembered to use it maybe four times since. More often I'll say "scrupulously," "diligently," or maybe "assiduously," or even "carefully" like a college graduate.
  9. Gary c Tesser

    No Quorum

    Hmmm. Richard, and Guest Who's, and anyone else: it occurs to me that if two board members are also parents, wouldn't they qualify for both roles (at least, arguably, establishing that a question has arisen of interpreting the bylaws?)
  10. So it's all over before I even get a word in. Feh.
  11. Gary c Tesser

    Amending Minutes/Reciding Motion

    The reference to "striking out" was probably about the idea of amending the minutes. Yes, you correctly read Section 35. But look at p. 308, #b (OK OK, "b" is not a number) : so, it is impossible to undo the fact that the motion, however erroneously, was made and adopted; and it is unconscionable (see p. 299, last four words) to propose that the minutes record anything other than what happened. (But actually I don't think that that is actually what you have been proposing, I think we are all in agreement and there is only a misunderstanding and we are all on the same page (as the contemporary instant-cliche' goes).)
  12. Gary c Tesser

    No Quorum

    It looks to me (as, I presume, making a PRES out of U and ME, though NEITHER OF US were elected PRES) as if, in the event that you and the coordinator are board members, then all you need is to get enough more parents -- that's four more? -- to care enough about their children to show up for the meetings. ( ... And what about the current vice-chair?)
  13. "At all"??!? Yes, of course. It happened. Record it exactly how it was done -- however wrongly. Then, in the minutes of the meeting at which you correct the action (i. e., and also e.g, for others, as soon as possible), you jump up and down about it. Also nothing prohibits your organization from making a marginal note at the minutes of the meeting when you didn't vote by secret ballot. I'm leaving something out so that my betters (the people who like the horses I recommend) have something to add besides rephrasing what I said (grump, gripe). Your pal, Gary c Tesser
  14. Gary c Tesser

    Post election special meeting

    RB, if you're looking at a specific, pray tell what is it? (Whatever could Gary Novosielski have left unsaid?)
  15. Gary c Tesser

    Nominating Committee error

    "Puzzled", if you haven't already, you (or one of your allies, to whom Mr Brown alludes, that irrepressible, indefatigable college graduate) should posthaste determine whatever your bylaws (or other rules) prescribe about nominations and elections. RONR gives a few options, but specifically says that the nominating committee's report, regardless of whether it has been previously distributed (which RONR says is a good idea) or not, "should always be presented at a formal meeting", and that "after teh nominating committee has presented its report ... the chair MUST [my emphasis -- GcT*] call for further nominations from the floor" (RONR, 11th Ed, p. 434 & -5). Mr or Ms Puzzled, it's right there, on those pages in black and white. And maybe, diplomatically, instead of raising a point of order when the rules are violated (which, in a sense, essentially accuses the presiding officer of doing it wrong) you pull him aside earlier -- some time before the meeting -- and tell him the easy and fair (and, oh, official) way to get the job done. __________ *Suddenly I don't see the icons for italics and boldface, so my apologies for the all-caps
  16. Gary c Tesser

    Combination Show of Hands/Nay Voting System?

    Boy, I'm glad he (or she: isn't "ciat" the Celtic word for "gladiola"? I left my Celtic-English / English-Celtic dictionary in the Consultation Room of my winter home in Tierra del Fuego) or she was so accommodating. (They say one way to defer mental decay accompanying advancing age is mental exercise, and one recommended specific is learning a new language: I'm trying out Sarcasm.)
  17. (Might we go into the grammar ("if" / "that"?))
  18. Yeah, I myself have been wondering about that for some 20 years or so. (I was younger then, or at least looked it.)
  19. Gary c Tesser

    Able to limit detail of a motion in the minutes?

    I was on tenterhooks.
  20. Thanks. How did you get there? Is that one of the those nugatory benefits of being a college graduate? (I wound up with : https://archive.org/stream/Robertsrulesofor00robe_201303/robertsrulesofor00robe#page/n121/mode/2up and: https://archive.org/stream/Robertsrulesofor00robe_201303/robertsrulesofor00robe#page/n123/mode/2up)
  21. Gary c Tesser

    Signs for meetings?

    Read Heinlein's "Columbus Was a Dope".
  22. Thank you Mr Transpower: #1 and 3 were spectacularly informative. (I have been wondering about this for millennia (some of the previous and some ofthe current). ) I'm a little skeptical about your #2.
  23. I couldn't. I have now spent close to an hour on it. What did you do? Would you kindly give a URL? Ah, for the good old days, when someone cheerily remarked that it was good news that someone had taught Mr Honemann how to turn his computer on, and he her replied that we might be gladder that nobody taught him how to turn it off. And now he breezily advises us to go ahead and ferret itout. Like those teachers who breezily fob off a question by saying he's leaving that as an exercise for the student. I went to Google, and tried the first dozen or so links. They don't have the pages numbered. I then tried the Wikipedia article on ROR, checking the External Links, but no dice. I expect I (and anyone else caught by this bait) I need to see a PDF file, or some other photograph-like format. (Or I might manage to could go home to Sheepshead Bay, slipping briefly from my bonds of servitude here in benighted Flatbush, and look it up in my copy, which that treasure Deb Wunder casually picked up in a garage sale, thinking Idly that I might like it, maybe ten years ago. But for pity's sake: if Dan Honemann can find it "without too much effort", I ought to be able to, with the boatloads of effort that I have already put in, and it looks like there's more coming. I'm not indefatigable, but I am obsessive. (On the other hand, he didn't actually say that he himself found it online without too much effort. Only that we ("You") others could. Since my best expedient, if I were home, would be to get up and toddle (these days, waddle or stagger or wamble) into the other room and look it up in the hard copy, most likely what Mr Honemann would have done, and maybe did, was similarly rise from his creaky old chair on his creaky old joints and toddle, waddle, stagger, or wamble across the room and pick up the real book..)
  24. As a variant of your #1 above, could not the member begin by moving to suspend the rules and ... [main motion] ? (And if not, why not, if you please.)
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