Quorum established or changed

[Guest Robert]

Hello!

 If you have 20 credentialed delegates at the start of convention, approved by credential committee, what happens when only 19 show up?

1- Do you base your quorum off of 20 or 19?

2- What if one delegate notifies the election committee they are not showing up (they were also not present for introductions) and choosing to not vote? Would it be 20 or 19 at that point?

3- If it is 19 and we eliminate said delegate, as they notified election committee they were not voting, then they decide they would like to vote on a later item, what is the process at that time?

4- As delegates leave and re-enter, does the quorum need to change each time this occurs?  Or, are the "missing" delegates/votes counted like an abstention?

Thanks for any/all feedback.   Our bylaws do not specifically address this.  Per our bylaws, "Each accredited delegate and proxy present, whose names appears on the list prepared by the Committee on Credentials, shall be entitled to one vote in each question submitted ...In all voting, a majority (51%) of eligible delegates in attendance shall rule unless otherwise provided in these Bylaws." I have tried to extensively look through RONR and I am having an issue coming up with concrete evidence on what to do.  I think the "in attendance" is what needs to be clarified.  It seems our parliamentarian is biased, so I am trying to find factual support for what do to in these situations.  If we change numbers the entire meeting, we never get any work done.    

[Dan Honemann]

3 hours ago, Guest Robert said:

Hello!

 If you have 20 credentialed delegates at the start of convention, approved by credential committee, what happens when only 19 show up?

 

What do you mean by this? Do you mean that 20 delegates appeared at the convention and registered with the Credentials Committee, but only 19 showed up for the business meeting(s)? If so, and if the rules in RONR are controlling, the presence of 11 members will be required for quorum purposes (RONR, 11th ed., p. 617, ll. 29-33).

I express no opinion concerning the meaning of that portion of your bylaws which you have quoted and which seems to relate to voting requirements rather than quorum requirements.

 

[Josh Martin]

For starters, I think there may be some confusion as to the meaning of the term "quorum." This refers to the minimum number of members who must be present in order to conduct business. It has nothing to do with the number of members required to vote in the affirmative for a motion to be adopted.

5 hours ago, Guest Robert said:

If you have 20 credentialed delegates at the start of convention, approved by credential committee, what happens when only 19 show up?

1- Do you base your quorum off of 20 or 19?

If the organization's bylaws or the convention's rules have their own rules regarding quorum, those rules should be consulted. If those rules are silent, then if 20 members register with the Credentials Committee, the quorum is 11 (a majority of the 20 registered delegates). This would mean that if 19 members are present, a quorum is present.

"As discussed below, most voluntary societies should provide for a quorum in their bylaws, but where there is no such provision, the quorum, in accordance with the common parliamentary law, is as follows: ...

3) In a body of delegates, such as a convention, the quorum is a majority of the number who have been registered as attending, irrespective of whether some may have departed. This may differ greatly from the number elected or appointed." (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 346)

5 hours ago, Guest Robert said:

2- What if one delegate notifies the election committee they are not showing up (they were also not present for introductions) and choosing to not vote? Would it be 20 or 19 at that point?

Assuming the rule in RONR are controlling, the quorum would still be 11 (a majority of 20). The rule specifically notes that the quorum is based on a majority registered as attending, "irrespective of whether some may have departed." Additionally, the fact that the member informs the Election Committee of this is of no consequence whatsoever, as the Credentials Committee is responsible for tracking the registrations and departures of delegates.

5 hours ago, Guest Robert said:

3- If it is 19 and we eliminate said delegate, as they notified election committee they were not voting, then they decide they would like to vote on a later item, what is the process at that time?

As noted above, the fact that the member informed the election committee they were not voting is of no consequence whatsoever. So the member is free at any time to change their mind and vote later.

5 hours ago, Guest Robert said:

4- As delegates leave and re-enter, does the quorum need to change each time this occurs?

The quorum doesn't change as delegates leave and re-enter, although it is possible that whether or not a quorum is present will change if enough delegates leave.

5 hours ago, Guest Robert said:

Or, are the "missing" delegates/votes counted like an abstention?

This has nothing to do with the presence of a quorum.

What the effect of "missing" delegates will have on the result of the vote appears to involve interpretation of your organization's bylaws.

5 hours ago, Guest Robert said:

Our bylaws do not specifically address this.  Per our bylaws, "Each accredited delegate and proxy present, whose names appears on the list prepared by the Committee on Credentials, shall be entitled to one vote in each question submitted ...In all voting, a majority (51%) of eligible delegates in attendance shall rule unless otherwise provided in these Bylaws." I have tried to extensively look through RONR and I am having an issue coming up with concrete evidence on what to do.  I think the "in attendance" is what needs to be clarified.  It seems our parliamentarian is biased, so I am trying to find factual support for what do to in these situations.  If we change numbers the entire meeting, we never get any work done.    

It is ultimately up to your organization to interpret its own rules. It appears the argument here is whether the words "in attendance" refer to the delegates who are in attendance at the convention or whether it refers to the delegates who are in the meeting hall at the present time. It is difficult to provide a concrete answer to this question since the wording here is unique and does not exactly match any wording used in RONR. It will ultimately be up to the society to interpret its own bylaws. RONR may provide some assistance in this regard with its Principles of Interpretation on pgs. 588-591 and in its discussion of Modifications of Usual Bases for Decision on pgs. 402-404.

[Richard Brown]

7 hours ago, Guest Robert said:

...In all voting, a majority (51%) of eligible delegates in attendance shall rule unless otherwise provided in these Bylaws."

If that is what your bylaws say, then so be it. You must follow your bylaws. However, a majority is not 51%. A majority is defined in RONR as simply “more than half”. It is not 50% plus one nor is it 51%.   It means more yes votes than no votes. Any fraction over half is a majority, no matter how small the fraction.

Edited to add: I note that your bylaws seem to require the affirmative vote of 51% of the members in attendance to adopt a motion or to elect someone from office, rather than 51% of the votes cast, excluding extensions and blanks. That means that abstentions, even though they are not votes, have the effect of no votes.

Edited July 19, 2020 at 03:00 PM by Richard Brown
Added last paragraph

[Atul Kapur]

8 hours ago, Guest Robert said:

If you have 20 credentialed delegates at the start of convention, approved by credential committee, what happens when only 19 show up?

1- Do you base your quorum off of 20 or 19?

2- What if one delegate notifies the election committee they are not showing up (they were also not present for introductions) and choosing to not vote? Would it be 20 or 19 at that point?

I am interpreting this differently then the others who have answered so far. It seems to me that, while the credentials committee has issued credentials to 20 people (ahead of time, it would appear, as per item 3 on RONR 11th ed., p. 611, line 29 - p. 612, line 3), only 19 have registered in attendance at the meeting itself. In that case, quorum would be based on the 19 who registered in attendance. If the rules in RONR apply, that's a majority of 19, which is 10.

[Dan Honemann]

4 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

I am interpreting this differently then the others who have answered so far. It seems to me that, while the credentials committee has issued credentials to 20 people (ahead of time, it would appear, as per item 3 on RONR 11th ed., p. 611, line 29 - p. 612, line 3), only 19 have registered in attendance at the meeting itself. In that case, quorum would be based on the 19 who registered in attendance. If the rules in RONR apply, that's a majority of 19, which is 10.

Well, this is the question I asked at the outset, and Guest Robert hasn't answered it yet.

[Atul Kapur]

2 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

Well, this is the question I asked at the outset, and Guest Robert hasn't answered it yet.

Yes, then you gave the answer if 20 delegates registered, and Mr. Martin appeared to assume that in his answer.

I wanted to specify the alternative answer, if in fact only 19 registered.

[Guest Guest Robert]

7 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

What do you mean by this? Do you mean that 20 delegates appeared at the convention and registered with the Credentials Committee, but only 19 showed up for the business meeting(s)? If so, and if the rules in RONR are controlling, the presence of 11 members will be required for quorum purposes (RONR, 11th ed., p. 617, ll. 29-33).

I express no opinion concerning the meaning of that portion of your bylaws which you have quoted and which seems to relate to voting requirements rather than quorum requirements.

 

Due to changes in online meeting we did credentialing the week prior to convention.  We had credentialed 20, but "present" at the meeting when it started were only 19.  So, for votes that required 2/3 vote for approval, there was controversy if if was out of 19 or 20, since although they were credentialed, they were not present at the beginning of the meeting.

[Guest Robert]

 

1 hour ago, Atul Kapur said:

I am interpreting this differently then the others who have answered so far. It seems to me that, while the credentials committee has issued credentials to 20 people (ahead of time, it would appear, as per item 3 on RONR 11th ed., p. 611, line 29 - p. 612, line 3), only 19 have registered in attendance at the meeting itself. In that case, quorum would be based on the 19 who registered in attendance. If the rules in RONR apply, that's a majority of 19, which is 10.

what if they decide two hours into the meeting they now want to attend?  Do you change the 2/3 majority vote to be out of 20, instead of 19?

[Joshua Katz]

35 minutes ago, Guest Guest Robert said:

So, for votes that required 2/3 vote for approval, there was controversy if if was out of 19 or 20, since although they were credentialed, they were not present at the beginning of the meeting.

Do your rules specify that threshold? If so, what exactly do they say? If the rules in RONR apply, a 2/3 vote requires 2/3 of votes cast, and how many are present is irrelevant (assuming, of course, a quorum is present to conduct business). Then there's the issue of how RONR interacts with your own rules, which provide:

11 hours ago, Guest Robert said:

.In all voting, a majority (51%) of eligible delegates in attendance shall rule unless otherwise provided in these Bylaws.

This presents a question which has been discussed on this board at length - namely, whether adopting RONR as your parliamentary authority in your bylaws means that, where RONR requires a 2/3 vote, it is required "in these Bylaws." But, in this case, it presents an issue of bylaw interpretation for your organization to resolve. Seemingly, your organization has resolved it to require a 2/3 vote. But the same question would arise for motions where RONR provides that a majority vote is required. If you interpret this as allowing RONR's vote threshold to govern, it says almost nothing. Regardless, we can't resolve that for you. Your organization will also have to interpret this ambiguous phrase, since a majority is not the same as 51%. If, at some point, a majority votes for something, but not 51%, your organization will need to determine how to proceed.

Edited July 19, 2020 at 07:16 PM by Joshua Katz

[Joshua Katz]

2 minutes ago, Guest Robert said:

what if they decide two hours into the meeting they now want to attend?  Do you change the 2/3 majority vote to be out of 20, instead of 19?

Please see Mr. Martin's post above distinguishing vote thresholds from quorum.

[Josh Martin]

1 hour ago, Guest Guest Robert said:

Due to changes in online meeting we did credentialing the week prior to convention.  We had credentialed 20, but "present" at the meeting when it started were only 19.  So, for votes that required 2/3 vote for approval, there was controversy if if was out of 19 or 20, since although they were credentialed, they were not present at the beginning of the meeting.

In the ordinary case, a 2/3 vote requires 2/3 of the members present and voting.  So in the circumstances described, it would be out of 19 at most, but it may have been less if some members abstained. If the member later arrived at the meeting, then it could have potentially been out of 20 if all members voted. Your bylaws may provide otherwise, but so far, no language from the bylaws referring to a 2/3 vote has been provided.

I would also add that it would have been prudent for the credentials committee to present an updated credentials report at the start of the meeting rather than relying on a credentials report that was a week old.

Edited July 19, 2020 at 07:41 PM by Josh Martin

[Guest Robert]

Thanks all for your help!  It seems we need to work on some wording in the bylaws due to ambiguity.  It is tough as sometimes we say (after a meeting started) that the 51%, or 2/3 vote for bylaw change, is out of 19, then a group that was not present at the start joins.  Then, it becomes those percentages out of 20.  I just did not know if this can change back and forth.  
I have tried reading RONR for answers and searched previous questions regarding this, but still am not certain.  It seems it may be more bylaw ambiguity versus following RONR.

[Josh Martin]

20 minutes ago, Guest Robert said:

Thanks all for your help!  It seems we need to work on some wording in the bylaws due to ambiguity.  It is tough as sometimes we say (after a meeting started) that the 51%, or 2/3 vote for bylaw change, is out of 19, then a group that was not present at the start joins.  Then, it becomes those percentages out of 20.  I just did not know if this can change back and forth.  
I have tried reading RONR for answers and searched previous questions regarding this, but still am not certain.  It seems it may be more bylaw ambiguity versus following RONR.

I think there is ambiguity in the bylaws provision we have seen since it provides that "a majority (51%) of eligible delegates in attendance shall rule." Is a member who is registered with the credentials committee but is not present at the given time considered to be "in attendance" for the purposes of this rule? I don't know. This wording does not exactly match any of the "modifications of usual bases for decision" in RONR.

If it is desired to clarify this rule, it would seem prudent to use one of the following, depending on what is intended:

• Strike the rule entirely and rely on RONR (in which event the requirement would be a majority of the delegates present and voting).
• Replace the wording with "A vote of a majority of the delegates present shall be required for adoption."
• Replace the wording with "A vote of a majority of all registered delegates shall be required for adoption."

I don't know if there is ambiguity in the 2/3 rule in your bylaws since I haven't seen it.

I also do not really understand this concern that "If we change numbers the entire meeting, we never get any work done." Can you explain further what the problem is?