Processing a primary motion to Substitute when no secondary amendments are moved?

[Howard Roark]

The first sentence in RONR (12th ed.) 12:70 appears to indicate that if a motion to substitute is a primary amendment, and no secondary amendments are involved, the motion to substitute is treated as essentially a simple strike out and insert motion.  

This seems consistent with the Form and Example that begins at 12:83.  It is only when a secondary amendment to modify the original motion or the substitute motion is introduced (as Member L does in 12:83) that the Chair resolves the motion to substitute into the two elements, each to be perfected separately.

"Perfecting" the initial motion or the substitute would seem to require secondary amendments.  If none are offered, both the initial motion and the substitute are already by definition "perfect", so the situation reduces to simple strike out and insert, albeit with slightly modified wording.

Yes?

[Shmuel Gerber]

I don't think I understand your question. A motion to substitute is a motion to substitute. If there are no complications then there are no complications. 

[Atul Kapur]

On 9/11/2023 at 11:04 PM, Howard Roark said:

Yes?

Sure.

[Dan Honemann]

On 9/11/2023 at 11:04 PM, Howard Roark said:

The first sentence in RONR (12th ed.) 12:70 appears to indicate that if a motion to substitute is a primary amendment, and no secondary amendments are involved, the motion to substitute is treated as essentially a simple strike out and insert motion.  

This seems consistent with the Form and Example that begins at 12:83.  It is only when a secondary amendment to modify the original motion or the substitute motion is introduced (as Member L does in 12:83) that the Chair resolves the motion to substitute into the two elements, each to be perfected separately.

"Perfecting" the initial motion or the substitute would seem to require secondary amendments.  If none are offered, both the initial motion and the substitute are already by definition "perfect", so the situation reduces to simple strike out and insert, albeit with slightly modified wording.

Yes?

I'm afraid that your assertion which I have bolded is, at best, misleading. 

Referring to the example that begins at 12:83, as soon as Member A's proposed substitute was stated by the chair, both the pending main motion (the adoption of a proposed resolution) and Member A's proposed substitute for it became open to debate and amendment, with any proposal to amend the proposed resolution to be given consideration before any proposal to amend Member A's proposed substitute. It is for this reason that the chair refused to entertain Member L's motion to amend the proposed substitute, calling instead for any proposed amendments to the originally proposed resolution.

If, as you have posited, no motion to amend either the originally proposed resolution or the proposed substitute for it is made, and there is no further debate, the chair will put the proposed substitute to a vote. If it is adopted, the resolution as so amended will be open to amendment only by adding something that does not modify its existing content (12:74) prior to putting it to a final vote. If it is rejected, the originally proposed resolution will remain open to further debate and amendment as described in 12:75.