Minutes question or example minutes

[Guest RileyK]

I have read through section 48 of the minutes of the RONR 12th edition. I had a question, and can not seem to find it online or in the book.  

I realize that each subject matter starts a new paragraph, but my question is when a secondary motion happens during that subject matter, is it a new paragraph or part of the original one.

For example,

A motion is moved, then amended  and then previous question is called on the amendment. Previous question is adopted, the Amendment is lost, and then the discussion on the main motion continues.

So my questions in the above scenario, is each motion it's own subject (and therefore paragraph), or all together since it all happened on the main motion?

 

Another example: During a main motion debate, a member moved a recess, the chair calls for debate, another member calls for a point of order that there is no debate, and then the chair takes the point and then votes on recess, recess is lost. 

So is each motion its own paragraph or is it all together since it was all during the same time. And since recess is a secondary motion that is lost, is it even included in the minutes?

 

Last question: Parliamentary inquiry, since it is not a ruling, should this be included in the minutes?

 

Thank you for any assistance or sample minutes you could provide.

[Joshua Katz]

On 9/27/2023 at 6:28 PM, Guest RileyK said:

A motion is moved, then amended  and then previous question is called on the amendment. Previous question is adopted, the Amendment is lost, and then the discussion on the main motion continues.

 

Mr. E moved to paint the clubhouse red. After debate, the motion was adopted.

We don't need the failed amendment, nor the previous question, because neither contributes to telling us about how things turned out.

On 9/27/2023 at 6:28 PM, Guest RileyK said:

Another example: During a main motion debate, a member moved a recess, the chair calls for debate, another member calls for a point of order that there is no debate, and then the chair takes the point and then votes on recess, recess is lost. 

 

I would not record the matter. None of if contributes to explaining how the motion turned out, nor does it explain anything incidental to that.

[Josh Martin]

On 9/27/2023 at 5:28 PM, Guest RileyK said:

I realize that each subject matter starts a new paragraph, but my question is when a secondary motion happens during that subject matter, is it a new paragraph or part of the original one.

To the extent the secondary motion is recorded at all, I am generally inclined to think that it should be included in the same paragraph as the main motion. But it is conceivable that a new paragraph for the secondary motion may be desirable in some cases. I think it is ultimately a judgment call on the part of the secretary to determine what constitutes a separate subject matter.

I would note the following is what RONR says in regard to inclusion of secondary motions in the minutes:

"secondary motions that were not lost or withdrawn, in cases where it is necessary to record them for completeness or clarity—for example, motions to Recess or to Fix the Time to Which to Adjourn (among the privileged motions), or motions to Suspend the Rules or grant a Request to Be Excused from a Duty (among the incidental motions), generally only alluding to the adoption of such motions, however, as “… the matter having been advanced in the agenda on motion of…” or “… a ballot vote having been ordered, the tellers…”;" RONR (12th ed.) 48:4

That is, most secondary motions are not recorded.

On 9/27/2023 at 5:28 PM, Guest RileyK said:

For example,

A motion is moved, then amended  and then previous question is called on the amendment. Previous question is adopted, the Amendment is lost, and then the discussion on the main motion continues.

So my questions in the above scenario, is each motion it's own subject (and therefore paragraph), or all together since it all happened on the main motion?

In my view, all of this can be included in one paragraph. In fact, I see no reason from the facts presented why it is necessary to include the amendment or the Previous Question in the minutes at all, at least so far as the rules in RONR are concerned. This would appear in the minutes as follows:

Mr. X moved that [text of motion]. The motion was adopted after debate.

On 9/27/2023 at 5:28 PM, Guest RileyK said:

Another example: During a main motion debate, a member moved a recess, the chair calls for debate, another member calls for a point of order that there is no debate, and then the chair takes the point and then votes on recess, recess is lost. 

So is each motion its own paragraph or is it all together since it was all during the same time. And since recess is a secondary motion that is lost, is it even included in the minutes?

In these circumstances, I would include the Point of Order as a separate paragraph. The motion for a recess does not need to be included, except to briefly mention it for context for the Point of Order. So I would write this section of the minutes as follows:

Mr. X moved that [text of motion]. The motion was adopted after debate.

During debate on the main motion, a motion to Recess was made, and a Point of Order was raised that the privileged motion to Recess is not debatable. The chair ruled the point well taken, noting that [reasoning of the chair].

On 9/27/2023 at 5:47 PM, Joshua Katz said:

I would not record the matter. None of if contributes to explaining how the motion turned out, nor does it explain anything incidental to that.

I agree, but RONR provides that the minutes are to include "all points of order and appeals, whether sustained or lost, together with the reasons given by the chair for his or her ruling;". RONR (12th ed.) 48:4

On 9/27/2023 at 5:28 PM, Guest RileyK said:

Last question: Parliamentary inquiry, since it is not a ruling, should this be included in the minutes?

No, a parliamentary inquiry, and the chair's response to the inquiry, are not included in the minutes.

Edited September 27, 2023 at 10:57 PM by Josh Martin