Chair avoids in-person meetings

[Anthony]

Under Article IV Section 6  Actions without Meeting,  the following method of voting electronically is put forward via the committee of chairs. 

Committee of Chairs would be the 5 committees the chair is allowed to form ie finance, events, membership, etc.  Those 5 chairs of that committee would form the Chair of Chairs committee.  I don't see in the bylaws that they can put forward any method of voting be it electronic or

On 1/30/2024 at 6:01 AM, Dan Honemann said:

On 1/30/2024 at 6:01 AM, Dan Honemann said:

Immediately prior to asking this question, Anthony quotes me as saying the following on 1/25/2024 at 7:40 AM:

"RR 45:59 and RR 45:61 authorizes electronic voting but does not provide associated quorum rules further suggesting that the question of quorum is moot when voting via electronic means."

This is what I actually said at that time:

"Voting by email is prohibited unless your bylaws specifically authorize it (see 45:56).  45:59 and 45:61, to which you refer, relate to voting by regular mail, and voting by this method must also be authorized in the bylaws (see 45:57)."

 

 

"RR 45:59 and RR 45:61 authorizes electronic voting but does not provide associated quorum rules further suggesting that the question of quorum is moot when voting via electronic means."

This is what I actually said at that time:

"Voting by email is prohibited unless your bylaws specifically authorize it (see 45:56).  45:59 and 45:61, to which you refer, relate to voting by regular mail, and voting by this method must also be authorized in the bylaws (see 45:57)."

 

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to misquote you. 

 

On 1/29/2024 at 1:04 PM, Anthony said:

You may, however, challenge it after the fact, via a Point of Order and Appeal.

If the Chair illegally removes the 3 voting members then we can appeal at the next meeting or call a special meeting? Executive Committee member makes a motion to appeal the illegal removal of 3 executive committee members- 2nd - and then it goes to a vote? The Executive Committee votes and with a majority vote reverse the Chair's actions giving the three back their positions?

Robert’s Rules (RR) 45:57 indicates that Vote by Mail (or email see RR 45:59) may be advantageous for important votes when a small fraction of the membership normally attend meetings.  As this is the case, and because the last two meetings have not been orderly and have lasted longer than most members would prefer,  an electronic version of voting  is proposed here in accordance with RR 45:59.

The Chair is misleading the Board when he makes this statement, correct? Of course, our bylaws give him the right to vote via email but it does not spell out the process. He uses the voting process in RR but would that apply to email voting if email voting is not allowed in RR?

         . No section in RONR authorizes absentee voting.  See 45:56 

• Any reference to electronic voting in §45 refers to digital voting devices used at proper in-person meetings, and so the same quorum rules apply.                                                                                                                                                                                                                               Our bylaws:  Any action requiring approval, including the election of regular members, may be taken without a meeting, via email or similar electronic means, provided a record of the decision and corresponding roll call is reflected under "Unfinished Business" in the minutes of the subsequent regular meeting.

[Guest Anon]

On 1/30/2024 at 8:29 AM, Anthony said:

If the Chair illegally removes the 3 voting members then we can appeal at the next meeting or call a special meeting? Executive Committee member makes a motion to appeal the illegal removal of 3 executive committee members- 2nd - and then it goes to a vote? The Executive Committee votes and with a majority vote reverse the Chair's actions giving the three back their positions?

You can call a special meeting by the rules in your bylaws. At that meeting, you can raise a point of order, where you explain whatever you think was improper according to the rules of your society. If the chair disagrees, you appeal that ruling, and the present members of your society will vote to affirm or overrule the chair.

On 1/30/2024 at 8:29 AM, Anthony said:

Of course, our bylaws give him the right to vote via email but it does not spell out the process. He uses the voting process in RR but would that apply to email voting if email voting is not allowed in RR?

If your bylaws authorize email voting, they authorize email voting. They might not spell out the process as well as they should, but I think the chair can apply common sense and hold a vote based on what you've described.

On 1/30/2024 at 8:29 AM, Anthony said:

         . No section in RONR authorizes absentee voting.  See 45:56 

That section has explicit exceptions for where bylaws authorize email voting.

On 1/30/2024 at 8:29 AM, Anthony said:

Any reference to electronic voting in §45 refers to digital voting devices used at proper in-person meetings, and so the same quorum rules apply.

RONR clearly contemplates some societies conducting votes by mail and email in 45:57-61, after authorizing it in their bylaws (as your bylaws do). Quorum obviously does not apply in such a case. 45:58 is talking about voting by mail, but the same principle applies that since you can't rely on quorum, you make sure that you get the ballots to the correct addresses. If you have some reason to think that some members did not get a ballot by email, you might have a case that something was improper about the email vote, but it sounds more like you are wanting a specified percentage to respond to get a "quorum." There is nothing in RONR suggesting that is required.

[Anthony]

On 1/30/2024 at 1:51 PM, Guest Anon said:

You can call a special meeting by the rules in your bylaws. At that meeting, you can raise a point of order, where you explain whatever you think was improper according to the rules of your society. If the chair disagrees, you appeal that ruling, and the present members of your society will vote to affirm or overrule the chair.

If your bylaws authorize email voting, they authorize email voting. They might not spell out the process as well as they should, but I think the chair can apply common sense and hold a vote based on what you've described.

That section has explicit exceptions for where bylaws authorize email voting.

RONR clearly contemplates some societies conducting votes by mail and email in 45:57-61, after authorizing it in their bylaws (as your bylaws do). Quorum obviously does not apply in such a case. 45:58 is talking about voting by mail, but the same principle applies that since you can't rely on quorum, you make sure that you get the ballots to the correct addresses. If you have some reason to think that some members did not get a ballot by email, you might have a case that something was improper about the email vote, but it sounds more like you are wanting a specified percentage to respond to get a "quorum." There is nothing in RONR suggesting that is required.

Right now I would like to send out an email to 44 voting members while he is filling non existent positions. 

The Chair circumvented the process spelled out in our bylaws for removing members.  Instead he and the secretary alone removed members in the name of expediency.   

Please vote to amend the Chair's decision

x Yes

xx No

Can I do this?

[Guest Anon]

I think so, but as you say, your bylaws don't give a lot of guidance about email votes, so wouldn't you rather do this in a meeting where well established procedure could be followed? What are you going to do when the chair says you can't vote to overturn his decision by email, send an email appeal for members to vote on by email? Seems very messy.

[Josh Martin]

I will first note that, while I will continue to try to do my best, I must issue the same warning I do ant any point a discussion goes on this long (not just in this thread, but in previous threads) - this situation may be complex and involved enough that your society would be best served by seeking out a professional parliamentarian to assist your society and take the time to review the governing documents in their entirety, issue formal opinions on the questions you have, and sit down to discuss the issues. Solving this issue piecemeal over the internet may not be the best strategy.

On 1/29/2024 at 7:41 PM, Anthony said:

Sorry.  Can anyone send the 44 Executive Committee members an email requesting an affirmative vote for a special meeting?

Your bylaws provide the following regarding a special meeting.

"Section 2: Special Meetings:
Special Meetings may be called by the Chair, the Vice Chair acting in the absence of the Chair, or by the Secretary at the written
request of more than one-half of the Board. ln the event a special meeting is called, notice shall be given by any means available
at least five (5) days prior to the scheduled meeting and the purpose or purposes of that meeting shall be clearly stated."

First, to clarify, there is no "vote" for a special meeting. What you need is to have "more than one-half of the board" sign on to a "written request" for a special meeting. How someone goes getting persons to sign on to such a request is up to them. Certainly, sending an email to all board members would be one way.

On 1/29/2024 at 10:04 PM, Anthony said:

Committee of Chairs would be the 5 committees the chair is allowed to form ie finance, events, membership, etc.  Those 5 chairs of that committee would form the Chair of Chairs committee.

Thank you for this clarification.

On 1/29/2024 at 10:04 PM, Anthony said:

I don't see in the bylaws that they can put forward any method of voting be it electronic or otherwise.

Then it appears they have no authority to determine the method of voting.

On 1/29/2024 at 10:04 PM, Anthony said:

If the Chair illegally removes the 3 voting members then we can appeal at the next meeting or call a special meeting?

Yes.

On 1/29/2024 at 10:04 PM, Anthony said:

Executive Committee member makes a motion to appeal the illegal removal of 3 executive committee members- 2nd - and then it goes to a vote? The Executive Committee votes and with a majority vote reverse the Chair's actions giving the three back their positions?

You need to raise a Point of Order first, and then the chair rules on that Point of Order. It is the chair's ruling on the Point of Order that you appeal from. Also, to be clear, the appeal is debatable.

Other than that, you seem to understand the process correctly, but I would clarify that voting on an appeal is somewhat strange - the vote is whether to sustain the chair's ruling. So those who disagree with the chair's ruling vote "no," and a majority in the negative is required to overturn the chair's ruling.

On 1/29/2024 at 10:04 PM, Anthony said:

The Chair is misleading the Board when he makes this statement, correct?

Yes. The chair is correct that your organization can vote by email, but that is the case because your bylaws say so. RONR has nothing to do with it.

On 1/29/2024 at 10:04 PM, Anthony said:

Of course, our bylaws give him the right to vote via email but it does not spell out the process. He uses the voting process in RR but would that apply to email voting if email voting is not allowed in RR?

No section in RONR authorizes absentee voting.  See 45:56 

I don't understand where you're going with all this. It's correct that nothing in RONR authorizes absentee voting. But your bylaws do. So obviously some process must be followed for email voting. If the procedures in RONR are helpful for developing such a process, good.

The sections concerning mail voting, to which your chair is referring, include the following statements:

"E-mail and other means of electronic communication can be tailored to comply with these requirements." RONR (12th ed.) 45:49

"As with respect to nonsecret ballots, e-mail and other means of electronic communication may be able to be tailored to comply with the above requirements for secret mail balloting." RONR (12th ed.) 45:61

I understand these statements to mean that, to the extent an organization has authorized voting by email in its bylaws, the procedures in RONR for a vote by mail are a helpful starting point in developing a procedure for voting by email.

On 1/29/2024 at 10:04 PM, Anthony said:

Any reference to electronic voting in §45 refers to digital voting devices used at proper in-person meetings, and so the same quorum rules apply. 

It is correct that what is said in RONR (12th ed.) 45:42-44 relates to digital voting devices used at in-person meetings and, in such circumstances, quorum rules apply, but I don't understand what this fact has to do with anything.

On 1/29/2024 at 10:04 PM, Anthony said:

Is there a difference of opinion as to whether or not RR allows for email voting?

No. There is not. RONR is clear on this matter.

"It is a fundamental principle of parliamentary law that the right to vote is limited to the members of an organization who are actually present at the time the vote is taken in a regular or properly called meeting, although it should be noted that a member need not be present when the question is put. Exceptions to this rule must be expressly stated in the bylaws. Such possible exceptions include: (a) voting by postal mail, e-mail, or fax, and (b) proxy voting." RONR (12th ed.) 45:56, emphasis added

But an exception to this rule is expressly stated in your bylaws. Your bylaws authorize email voting. So you can vote by email.

"Section 6: Actions without Meeting
Any action requiring approval, including the election of regular members, may be taken without a meeting, via email or similar electronic means, provided a record of the decision and corresponding roll call is reflected under "Unfinished Business" in the minutes of the subsequent regular meeting."

On 1/29/2024 at 10:18 PM, Anthony said:

If the chair will not have a meeting where a member can make a point of order, receive a second and then take it to the Board for a vote, can we send out an email making a motion to amend the Chairs decision to illegally remove the Board members without presenting the matter to the Board?

x  Amend Chairs decision to remove members

xx Accept Chairs decision to remove members

Your bylaws say the following on this matter.

"Section 6: Actions without Meeting
Any action requiring approval, including the election of regular members, may be taken without a meeting, via email or similar electronic means, provided a record of the decision and corresponding roll call is reflected under "Unfinished Business" in the minutes of the subsequent regular meeting."

Frankly, your guess is as good as mine, but since the rule says "Any action requiring approval" may be voted on in this matter, I suppose I see no reason why not.

On 1/30/2024 at 4:16 PM, Anthony said:

Right now I would like to send out an email to 44 voting members while he is filling non existent positions. 

The Chair circumvented the process spelled out in our bylaws for removing members.  Instead he and the secretary alone removed members in the name of expediency.   

Please vote to amend the Chair's decision

x Yes

xx No

Can I do this?

I might suggest providing a little more context for what on earth you're talking about, but again, I see no reason why not. Your bylaws provide that "Any action requiring approval" can be conducted over email, and provide no guidance on how that process works, who initiates it, or any other details. So sure, why not.

Your organization should probably revise this in the future, but in the interim, I suppose you are as free to abuse this rule as the chair is.

But I agree with Guest Anon that adding more mess to the chair's mess is maybe not the best solution to this problem.

On 1/30/2024 at 4:39 PM, Guest Anon said:

I think so, but as you say, your bylaws don't give a lot of guidance about email votes, so wouldn't you rather do this in a meeting where well established procedure could be followed? What are you going to do when the chair says you can't vote to overturn his decision by email, send an email appeal for members to vote on by email? Seems very messy.

 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 1/29/2024 at 11:04 PM, Anthony said:

Is there a difference of opinion as to whether or not RR allows for email voting?

What RONR says is largely not a matter of opinion at all, since it is written in ink and English on the page.  And since his name is on the cover of the Book, you may properly assume that @Dan Honemann has more than a passing familiarity with what RONR allows. 

But you seem to be adopting a view of what RONR says or appears to you to say, motivated more by what you want it to say than by what it actually says.  I think you will find that among the regulars here, that is a deprecated method of interpretation.

[Anthony]

Well it seems my ignorance has run it's course I want to thank you all for the patience and help.  It may not seem like it but I have learned a lot.

[Anthony]

On 1/30/2024 at 8:13 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

What RONR says is largely not a matter of opinion at all, since it is written in ink and English on the page.  And since his name is on the cover of the Book, you may properly assume that @Dan Honemann has more than a passing familiarity with what RONR allows. 

But you seem to be adopting a view of what RONR says or appears to you to say, motivated more by what you want it to say than by what it actually says.  I think you will find that among the regulars here, that is a deprecated method of interpretation.

  Gary, There was no need to be condescending.  If my questions are not up to your standard of expertise, simply do not reply. Written in ink and English on the page?  Really?

[Gary Novosielski]

On 1/30/2024 at 9:06 PM, Anthony said:

  Written in ink and English on the page?  Really?

Well, I thought they were.  I am prepared to stand corrected.  In any case it was not my intention to offend.