Tabling a Motion and Voting 2ce on that

[Guest Daisy]

At a recent meeting, a motion to vote on a particular agenda item was brought forward and seconded, then the members of the committee discussed their views regarding the agenda item. During this discussion, 4 members said they would approve the agenda item in a vote and 2 said they would not. The chair than requested comments from the community. Following comments from the community, one member of the committee said he had changed his mind and would like more time to consider the agenda item. The committee made a motion to table the agenda item to the next meeting and they voted 3 to 3. Which, to my understanding, was a fail. Upon further discussion and instruction, the committee decided to vote again, with a new motion or new circumstances. This time they voted 5 to 1 in favor of tabling the agenda item to the next meeting. Additionally, they've advertised the agenda for the next meeting and the tabled item appears on the agenda.

So, if the committee could not vote to table the item to another time (which is what I believe from my reading), nor could they vote a second time to approve the tabling of the item, nor could they advertise the item on the agenda for the upcoming meeting, what is my recourse? And, if there is a recourse, is there a certain time within which I must take action.

Any help will be appreciated.

[Guest Daisy]

I meant to say that they decided to vote again without a new motion or new circumstances.

[Chris Harrison]

So, if the committee could not vote to table the item to another time (which is what I believe from my reading), nor could they vote a second time to approve the tabling of the item, nor could they advertise the item on the agenda for the upcoming meeting, what is my recourse? And, if there is a recourse, is there a certain time within which I must take action.

Any help will be appreciated.

There is recourse available because nothing was done wrong procedurally (except the proper motion to consider the motion at the next meeting is Postpone rather than Lay on the Table). The original motion to Postpone was defeated and then either the motion was Reconsidered or renewed (depending on if progress in business or debate has been sufficient to make it essentially a new question). See RONR p. 175 and pp. 325-331.

[Trina]

...what is my recourse? And, if there is a recourse, is there a certain time within which I must take action.

Any help will be appreciated.

Although there may have been flaws in procedure, most flaws in procedure don't matter after the fact. In almost all cases, flaws have to be challenged with a timely point of order. The sequence of events you describe doesn't seem to contain any continuing breaches (flaws or errors which are so important that they can be challenged after the fact).

I'm curious why you are looking for recourse? What significant wrong was done, and/or how would you like to remedy the situation?

[Chris Harrison]

There is recourse available because nothing was done wrong procedurally ...

That should be there is *no* recourse available...

[Trina]

That should be there is *no* recourse available...

Hey, remember we can edit now, instead of doing the familiar typo-correction-plus-apology posts that were so much fun on the old forum

[Guest Guest BoDuke]

That should be there is *no* recourse available...

What if this were a school committee meeting where they are required to make these decisions under Robert's Rules per their bylaws and the State AG's office? Do these technicalities become more meaningful? If a vote to table ties (which means it fails), how can the same vote be brought up again? Otherwise you could continue voting until somebody fell asleep.

"In almost all cases, flaws have to be challenged with a timely point of order." This is a problem is point of order can not be introduced by the public watching who witness the error.

Also, what happens when a meeting adjourns with a motion on the table (which has been seconded)? Does the motion die?

[Chris Harrison]

Hey, remember we can edit now, instead of doing the familiar typo-correction-plus-apology posts that were so much fun on the old forum

Oh I know the edit feature is there (I have used it many times already ). I fell in the psuedo "not" hole and wanted to do a seperate post so there wasn't any confusion if Daisy had responded.

[Chris Harrison]

What if this were a school committee meeting where they are required to make these decisions under Robert's Rules per their bylaws and the State AG's office? Do these technicalities become more meaningful? If a vote to table ties (which means it fails), how can the same vote be brought up again? Otherwise you could continue voting until somebody fell asleep.

My above answer with the citations still applies. Of course any applicable rules and/or laws may say otherwise.

"In almost all cases, flaws have to be challenged with a timely point of order." This is a problem is point of order can not be introduced by the public watching who witness the error.

True. But the public have no rights to the proceedings under RONR in the first place (RONR p. 628). It would be up to the committee members to raise the Point of Order. Any applicable laws may give the public some sort of recourse but that is beyond our purview.

Also, what happens when a meeting adjourns with a motion on the table (which has been seconded)? Does the motion die?

RONR p. 206 says:

In cases in which the next regular business session will be held before a quarterly time interval has elapsed, a question laid on the table remains there until taken from the table or until the close of the next regular session; if not taken up by that time, the question dies. In cases in which the lapse of time between regular business sessions is greater than a quarterly time interval, a question laid on the table can remain there only until the end of the current session; and unless taken from the table earlier, the matter dies with the close of that session.

[Guest Daisy]

Chris h. - Does that mean that if at the next meeting, the topic is not adressed prior to the adjournment of the meeting, it dies? Can it be tabled, again?

[Josh Martin]

What if this were a school committee meeting where they are required to make these decisions under Robert's Rules per their bylaws and the State AG's office? Do these technicalities become more meaningful?

Nope.

If a vote to table ties (which means it fails), how can the same vote be brought up again?

First of all, it's clear that since the original poster referred to the motion being tabled "until the next meeting" that the motion being referred to here is not the motion to Lay on the Table, but the motion to Postpone to a Certain Time (or Postpone Definitely). See FAQ #12 for more information.

However, the rules for reconsidering or renewing either of these motions when they are defeated is pretty much the same. If a motion to Postpone to a Certain Time or Postpone Definitely is defeated, it may be reconsidered until such time as it may be renewed (after material progress has been made in debate). A motion to reconsider must be made by a member who voted on the prevailing side (voted no, in this case) and must receive a majority vote. The motion is then once again before the assembly. With renewal, the motion is simply made again as if it had never been made. Since the original poster said that there were "no new circumstances," it seems likely that reconsideration would have been more appropriate. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 175, lines 4-8; pg. 204, lines 18-24; pg. 329, lines 1-9)

It is quite possible that reconsideration was not actually moved, however, a timely Point of Order would have needed to be raised. Since the relevant rule (that the motion may not be renewed until after significant progress is made in debate), violation of the rule does not cause a continuing breach. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 243, lines 18-27)

Otherwise you could continue voting until somebody fell asleep.

No, you can't. If members repeatedly move the motion to Postpone Definitely or Lay on the Table, when there is clearly no legitimate reason to do so, the chair should rule the motions out of order as dilatory. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 331, lines 14-15)

"In almost all cases, flaws have to be challenged with a timely point of order." This is a problem is point of order can not be introduced by the public watching who witness the error.

It's not a problem as far as RONR is concerned. Only members of the assembly that is meeting have the right to make motions. If the public doesn't like it they should elect new members next time. But I really don't think it's that big a deal. The motion will just come up at the next meeting under General Orders. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 347, lines 23-25)

Also, what happens when a meeting adjourns with a motion on the table (which has been seconded)? Does the motion die?

First of all, let's clear up again that in this case, the motion was postponed to the next meeting, not laid on the table, so it just comes up under General Orders at the next meeting.. If a motion is laid on the table and is not taken from the table, then it dies at the end of the next regular session if it is within a quarterly time interval, or at the end of the current session ifr the next session is not within a quarterly time interval. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 206, lines 21-30)

[Chris Harrison]

Chris h. - Does that mean that if at the next meeting, the topic is not adressed prior to the adjournment of the meeting, it dies? Can it be tabled, again?

I can't speak for BoDuke's situation but you are using the incorrect terminology. The motion should be postponed not tabled. Laying a motion on the table is done when there something more pressing that needs to be dealt with right away and the intent is to get back to it. Postponing something is exactly what it sounds like.

RONR p. 175 says:

In a case where more than a quarterly time interval will elapse between meetings (for example, in an annual convention of delegates or in a local society that holds only an annual meeting), a question cannot be postponed beyond the end of the present session. In cases where no more than a quarterly time interval will elapse between sessions, a question can be postponed until, but not beyond, the next regular business session.

[Josh Martin]

Chris h. - Does that mean that if at the next meeting, the topic is not adressed prior to the adjournment of the meeting, it dies? Can it be tabled, again?

No, because as Chris H. said, the motion used here was Postpone to a Certain Time, not Lay on the Table - because you can't table something to the next meeting, you postpone it to the next meeting. See FAQ #12.

The motion will automatically come up under General Orders at the next meeting. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 347, lines 23-25) If it is not reached prior to adjournment, then it will come up under Unfinished Business at the meeting after that. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 347, lines 18-22) It may be postponed again. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 176, lines 8-11)