Expelling a probationary member

[fireems71]

Our organization has our own bylaws. The three which pertain to this forum are “The meetings of the organization shall be governed by Parliamentary Rules as established in Roberts Rules of Order when not otherwise covered by provisions elsewhere in these Articles." We also have a section that states: "When an interpretation of these Articles or a ruling regarding correct Parliamentary Procedure is requested, the President’s decision, with the advice of the Committee on Constitution and Bylaws, shall be final." And finally we have a section which states that any bylaw may be suspended as long as there are 2/3 of the members present and voting in favor.

Ok, with this knowledge, I will go on to my questions. We have a membership process in our organization which places a new member on Probation for one year, with a final vote for membership occurring at the end of that year, which requires only a simple majority, either way to accept or dismiss. With that in mind, our organization has, for the decade and a half for which I have been a member, expelled probationary members in this first year by a motion, second and simple majority ballot vote by the members present and eligible to vote. It is my understanding that a probationary period is there to enable an organization to perform such actions. Now, it is not written that this action can or cannot occur, but it has been an ongoing practice for a very long time.

We have recently ejected a probationary member using this same system. A motion was made and seconded for dismissal, a question period and debate were held, the motion was sent to vote by secret ballot, and the motion for dismissal carried by more than 2/3 majority of those members present and eligible to vote.

This vote is now being challenged by the individual who was ejected on the “legality” of the vote, citing that it is not stated that this action of expulsion can occur to a probationary member without charges being written, an investigation of the charges being held, and an opportunity for the accused to state his case and a final hearing to be held by the membership.

So here are a few questions I am looking for help with.

1. Does past precedent carry any weight?

2. Does the 2/3 majority vote to overrule the bylaw count?

3. Does this expelled individual have any right to appeal this process?

4. Would a current member have the ability to bring this action up for another vote?

a. If yes, what would be the necessary vote count to overrule a previous vote by the membership?

b. Can those persons who were not at the initial vote have a voice in this matter?

c. Does this event of expulsion bear any different merit on the decisions of this body? For example, if the body voted to buy a coffee pot and then the next month persons who were not at the meeting want to now say no, can they? Is this the same??

I have more questions and more information I can lend to anyone who can help and I am sure that more questions will be asked of me. I have until 8:00 PM Eastern time zone, daylight savings time till our next meeting.

[Thomas Ralph]

Is your "membership process" something that's written in the bylaws or just something you concocted over time?

[fireems71]

Is your "membership process" something that's written in the bylaws or just something you concocted over time?

It is in the bylaws;

A candidate for membership twenty-one (21) and older shall serve a one (1) year probationary period starting on the date of acceptance by this organization. At the conclusion of the probationary year, the Recording Secretary shall read a written report containing reports of the firematic officers, executive officers and pertinent committees to the membership. Upon deliverance of said report, the membership shall vote by secret ballot. A simple majority of members eligible and voting will be needed for acceptance to full membership. If said candidate fails to obtain a simple majority, he/she shall be promptly notified in writing stating the reason for rejection. Any member serving in his/her probationary period will not be eligible to vote on the acceptance of another member to full membership.

[Kim Goldsworthy]

We also have a section that states: "When an interpretation of these Articles or a ruling regarding correct Parliamentary Procedure is requested, the President’s decision, with the advice of the Committee on Constitution and Bylaws, shall be final."

A one-man monopoly on points of orders and appeals???

Oh, dear gawd. - You've screwed yourself with your own bylaws!

... any bylaw may be suspended as long as there are 2/3 of the members present and voting in favor.

"Any"???

Son of "screw'd thyself with thine own bylaws", as Shakespeare might have said.

We have a membership process in our organization which places a new member on Probation for one year, with a final vote for membership occurring at the end of that year, which requires only a simple majority, either way to accept or dismiss.

With that in mind, our organization has, for the decade and a half for which I have been a member, expelled probationary members in this first year by a motion, second and simple majority ballot vote by the members present and eligible to vote.

It is my understanding that a probationary period is there to enable an organization to perform such actions.

Now, it is not written that this action can or cannot occur, but it has been an ongoing practice for a very long time.

We have recently ejected a probationary member using this same system.

A motion was made and seconded for dismissal, a question period and debate were held, the motion was sent to vote by secret ballot, and the motion for dismissal carried by more than 2/3 majority of those members present and eligible to vote.

This vote is now being challenged by the individual who was ejected on the “legality” of the vote, citing that it is not stated that this action of expulsion can occur to a probationary member without charges being written, an investigation of the charges being held, and an opportunity for the accused to state his case and a final hearing to be held by the membership.

So here are a few questions I am looking for help with.

1. Does past precedent carry any weight?

2. Does the 2/3 majority vote to overrule the bylaw count?

3. Does this expelled individual have any right to appeal this process?

4. Would a current member have the ability to bring this action up for another vote?

a. If yes, what would be the necessary vote count to overrule a previous vote by the membership?

b. Can those persons who were not at the initial vote have a voice in this matter?

c. Does this event of expulsion bear any different merit on the decisions of this body? For example, if the body voted to buy a coffee pot and then the next month persons who were not at the meeting want to now say no, can they? Is this the same?

1. "... past precedent carry any weight?"

Where there is a conflict between unwritten precedent and a written rule, the written rule prevails, and the unwritten precedent yields.

2. "... 2/3 majority ... override bylaw ..."

"... any bylaw may be suspended as long as there are 2/3 of the members present and voting in favor." - This is a customized rule, not a rule from Robert's Rules of Order. So whether it "counts" (?) or not, is up to the organization to decide, since you've Jumped Outside The System by adopting this real corker of an override, and no page from RONR will apply where a customized rule has taken precedence.

3. "Right to appeal"

Do you mean, (a.) under your customized rules?; (b.) under Robert's Rules of Order?

(There is no "appeal process" regarding expulsion under Robert's Rules of Order.)

4. "... bring this action up for another vote."

Under your rules? - Unknown.

Under Robert's Rules? - No. Expulsions cannot be subject to the motion Reconsider.

4.c. "... buy a coffee pot ... (later) wanted to vote "no" ... Is this the same?"

No, it is not the same.

A purchase has a few hours or a few days to be rescinded, if the purchase is not yet started or not yet complete. (E.g., you may have time to: not mail the order; or, to order a stop-payment on the check; or, to defer a delivery date; etc.)

An expulsion cannot be rescinded. There is no lag time. There are no un-executed parts of an expulsion which can be subject to a re-vote.

Once the assembly has moved on to the next agenda item, then any Reconsideration window of opportunity is forever closed, after the chair announces the vote on the expulsion.

Just as you cannot un-break a mirror, and you cannot un-ring a bell. - There is no number of hours or days where the expulsion is not yet completed.

[fireems71]

I was looking online, the website and exact link, My link. I saw the section on reconsidering which I know does not apply here, however, to Rescind, Repeal, or Annul a vote did catch my eye. The following is what it states:

37. Rescind, Repeal, or Annul. Any vote taken by an assembly, except those mentioned further on, may be rescinded by a majority vote, provided notice of the motion has been given at the previous meeting or in the call for this meeting; or it may be rescinded without notice by a two-thirds vote, or by a vote of a majority of the entire membership. The notice may be given when another question is pending, but cannot interrupt a member while speaking. To rescind is identical with the motion to amend something previously adopted, by striking out the entire by-law, rule, resolution, section, or paragraph, and is subject to all the limitations as to notice and vote that may be placed by the rules on similar amendments. It is a main motion without any privilege, and therefore can be introduced only when there is nothing else before the assembly. It cannot be made if the question can be reached by calling up the motion to reconsider which has been previously made. It may be made by any member; it is debatable, and yields to all privileged and incidental motions; and all of the subsidiary motions may be applied to it.

The motion to rescind can be applied to votes on all main motions, including questions of privilege and orders of the day that have been acted upon, and to votes on an appeal, with the following exceptions: votes cannot be rescinded after something has been done as a result of that vote that the assembly cannot undo; or where it is in the nature of a contract and the other party is informed of the fact; or, where a resignation has been acted upon, or one has been elected to, or expelled from, membership or office, and was present or has been officially notified. In the case of expulsion, the only way to reverse the action afterwards is to restore the person to membership or office, which requires the same preliminary steps and vote as is required for an election.

[Kim Goldsworthy]

I was looking online, the website and exact link. I saw the section on reconsidering which I know does not apply here, however, to Rescind, Repeal, or Annul a vote did catch my eye.

Yeah. In 1915 (the 4th ed. of R.O.R., not RONR), that was State Of The Art regarding reconsideration and rescission.

In 1915, it took two paragraphs to describe the process.

In 2000, it takes more than 30 pages to describe the process.

Did you have great hopes of using the 1915 Fourth edition as your parliamentary authority?

Good luck with that goal.

Q. Did you have a question about the current edition of Robert's Rules, or a question about the 1915 Fourth Edition of Robert's Rules?

[fireems71]

Yeah. In 1915 (the 4th ed. of R.O.R., not RONR), that was State Of The Art regarding reconsideration and rescission.

In 1915, it took two paragraphs to describe the process.

In 2000, it takes more than 30 pages to describe the process.

Did you have great hopes of using the 1915 Fourth edition as your parliamentary authority?

Good luck with that goal.

Q. Did you have a question about the current edition of Robert's Rules, or a question about the 1915 Fourth Edition of Robert's Rules?

So there isn't anything in the 10th edition that applies?

[Trina]

So there isn't anything in the 10th edition that applies?

Sure, there's quite a bit of information in the 10th edition about the motion to rescind. I believe Mr. Goldsworthy's point is that the current edition goes into more detail than the 1915 version (which is what people find available online). In general, actions which have been fully carried out cannot be rescinded. Expulsion from membership is specifically mentioned as an action which cannot be rescinded:

The motion to rescind 'is not in order when... a person has been elected to or expelled from office, and the person was present or has been officially notified of the action. (The only way to reverse an expulsion is to follow whatever procedure is prescribed by the bylaws for admission or reinstatement...).' (RONR pp. 297-298)

If the motion to expel is in conflict with your bylaws, it may be a continuing breach (described RONR p. 244), and hence null and void. However, since your organization is apparently free to suspend ANY bylaw (and, by extension, that would mean you can probably suspend anything in the parliamentary authority adopted in those bylaws), it seems you have made yourselves an environment where there are no hard and fast rules at all.

Allowing the president the sole right to interpret bylaws, and to rule on parliamentary questions is unwise. As is the ability of the organization members to suspend ANY bylaw. In the longer term, your organization may want to consider amending those sections of your bylaws.

[Trina]

Also, you may wish to refer to RONR pp. 570-573, for some principles of bylaws interpretation. In the case of this organization, of course, it may be adequate for your president to study those pages, since he's the designated interpreter, per your bylaws...

[Josh Martin]

1. Does past precedent carry any weight?

"Precedent" in parliamentary law refers to what is created by a ruling of the chair and any subsequent appeal. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 294, lines 28-30) The fact that you've done something a certain way in the past is not precedent, but custom, which yields to the written rules of the assembly if there is a conflict. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 17, lines 7-15)

2. Does the 2/3 majority vote to overrule the bylaw count?

This is ultimately a question of Bylaw interpretation which your organization will have to interpret for itself. A blanket suspension rule isn't really anticipated in RONR. The text generally speaks of the Bylaws providing for specific rules to be suspended, but I suppose the same principle would apply. The related rules are RONR, 10th ed., pg. 12, lines 29-33; pg. 254, lines 28-34. Also see RONR, 10th ed., pgs. 570-573 for some Principles of Interpretation.

3. Does this expelled individual have any right to appeal this process?

There is no appeal process in RONR simply because an individual disagrees with the decision. Under RONR, a Point of Order could be raised if there was some violation of the rules which caused a continuing breach, and the ruling of the chair could be appealed from and overturned by majority vote. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 244, lines 4-26; pg. 247, lines 19-25; pg. 250, lines 9-13) It appears, however, that your Bylaws provide otherwise, and your Bylaws supersede RONR. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 14, lines 15-17) Your suspension rule could feasibly also come into play here. See RONR, 10th ed., pgs. 570-573 for some Principles of Interpretation.

4. Would a current member have the ability to bring this action up for another vote?

No. An expulsion cannot be rescinded. The only way to reverse the expulsion is to follow the procedure in your Bylaws for admitting new members. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 298, lines 1-6) Your suspension rule could feasibly come into play here. See RONR, 10th ed., pgs. 570-573 for some Principles of Interpretation.

a. If yes, what would be the necessary vote count to overrule a previous vote by the membership?

The expulsion cannot be rescinded. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 298, lines 1-6) If there was a continuing breach, ruling the expulsion null and void may be possible under the rules of RONR, and a majority vote would be sufficient to overturn the chair's ruling in such a case, but it appears your Bylaws provide otherwise. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 244, lines 4-26; pg. 247, lines 19-25; pg. 250, lines 9-13; pg. 14, lines 15-17) If you readmit the member, follow whatever procedures are called for in your Bylaws. Your suspension rule could feasibly also come into play here. See RONR, 10th ed., pgs. 570-573 for some Principles of Interpretation.

b. Can those persons who were not at the initial vote have a voice in this matter?

Whatever process the assembly ends up following, all members of the assembly who are present have the right to vote on all matters which come before the assembly, regardless of whether they voted on a prior, related issue. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 3, lines 7-12; pg. 255, lines 22-28)

c. Does this event of expulsion bear any different merit on the decisions of this body? For example, if the body voted to buy a coffee pot and then the next month persons who were not at the meeting want to now say no, can they? Is this the same??

Yes, expulsion is a special case. The general rule is that decisions may be rescinded, although it requires a higher voting threshold. (RONR, 10th ed., pgs. 293-299) For the coffee pot example, the motion could be rescinded up until the point that the coffee pot was actually purchased, since a motion cannot be rescinded when it is impossible to undo. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 297, lines 32-35)

You should also consider amending your Bylaws, as allowing any rule in the Bylaws to be suspended by a 2/3 vote seems like a recipe for disaster.

The motion to rescind can be applied to votes on all main motions... with the following exceptions... one has been... expelled from, membership... and was present or has been officially notified. In the case of expulsion, the only way to reverse the action afterwards is to restore the person to membership..., which requires the same preliminary steps and vote as is required for an election.

So there isn't anything in the 10th edition that applies?

Well, although the text you're reading is quite out-of-date, that rule hasn't really changed. See RONR, 10th ed., pg. 298, lines 1-6.