presidential authority

[Guest tony terry bustos]

I was wondering in a quorum or membership meeting can a motion be made and then can the president find you out of order before the motion is voted on because your motion is against the decision of what the president wants done. our by laws state

GOVERNING AUTHORITY

Section 1. Membership

The affairs of the Local shall be governed by its members in

accordance with the Constitution and policies of the Union, the

Bylaws and Rules of the Local, in the following manner.

A. Through actions taken in Local Membership meetings or by

referendum of the membership.

B. Through actions and decisions of the Executive Board between

Local Membership Meetings.

C. Through actions and decisions of the Local President between

Local membership meetings

[Josh Martin]

I was wondering in a quorum or membership meeting can a motion be made and then can the president find you out of order before the motion is voted on because your motion is against the decision of what the president wants done.

No. Your Bylaws clause which allows the President to act between meetings is unusual, but Official Interpretation 2006-13, which deals with comparable clauses for authority for the board to act between meetings, should clarify that the general membership still has the final say.

[Guest tony terry bustos]

So what would be protocol or response be when the motion is called out of order

[hmtcastle]

So what would be protocol or response be when the motion is called out of order

The ruling of the chair can (and should) be appealed. The assembly will decide who's right.

[David A Foulkes]

The ruling of the chair can (and should) be appealed. The assembly will decide who's right.

Even if they're wrong.

[Guest tony terry bustos]

So if what is being said is true how does article 11 section 67 Roberts Rules.constitutions,bylaws and rules of order apply to this

[hmtcastle]

how does article 11 section 67 Roberts Rules.constitutions,bylaws and rules of order apply to this

You may be referring to an earlier edition of Robert's Rules of Order. We're currently focused on the current, 10th, edition (though we'd like to see the 11th edition under our respective Christmas trees).

[Josh Martin]

So if what is being said is true how does article 11 section 67 Roberts Rules.constitutions,bylaws and rules of order apply to this

There is no Article 11 or Section 67 in the 10th edition. Most likely, you're looking at the 4th edition, which is nearly a century old.

I also have no idea what you're looking at in that section which you feel is relevant to the discussion. Perhaps you could be more specific?

[Guest tony terry bustos]

Apparently the reference that is being used is that "cannot overturn Presidents decision in any forum" see roberts rules Article 11, section 67. Constitutions,Bylaws and Rules of order.

This information was provided because of a attempt that will be made at a general membership meeting which will try and use the membership and its body to overturn a decision that was made by the President which is unfavorable by the membership. The President has stressed that any kind of motion will be squashed and called out of order if the attempt is made. The President is stateing that this Article is the basis of there arguement and that once a President has made a decision there is no way to overturn it. Regardless in a General Memembership meeting and by a motion placed by a member of this quorum

[hmtcastle]

The President has stressed that any kind of motion will be squashed and called out of order if the attempt is made. The President is stating that this Article is the basis of his argument and that once a President has made a decision there is no way to overturn it.

Your president doesn't know what he's talking about. Perhaps his role model is Richard ("When the President does it that means that it is not illegal") Nixon.

See FAQ #20 for how you can help him follow in Nixon's footsteps.

[Kim Goldsworthy]

So if what is being said is true how does article 11 section 67 Roberts Rules.constitutions,bylaws and rules of order apply to this?

It doesn't!

See R.O.R. Fourth Edition (1915, out of copyright):

67. Constitutions, By-laws, Rules of Order, and Standing Rules. The rules of a society, in a majority of cases, may be conveniently divided into these four classes, though in some societies all the rules are found under one of these heads, being called either the constitution, or the by-laws, or the standing rules.

Such provisions in regard to the constitution, etc., as are of a temporary nature should not be placed in the constitution, etc., but should be included in the motion to adopt, thus: "I move the adoption of the constitution reported by the committee and that the four directors receiving the most votes shall serve for three years, the four receiving the next largest numbers shall serve for two years, and the next four for one year, and that where there is a tie the classification shall be by lot;" or, "I move the adoption, etc. ... and that Article III, shall not go into effect until after the close of this annual meeting." Or, if the motion to adopt has been made, it may be amended so as to accomplish the desired object.

Constitutions. An incorporated society frequently has no constitution, the charter taking its place, and many others prefer to combine under one head the rules that are more commonly placed under the separate heads of constitution and by-laws. There is no objection to this unless the by-laws are elaborate, when it is better to separate the most important rules and place them in the constitution. The constitution should contain only the following:

(1) Name and object of the society.

(2) Qualification of members.

(3) Officers and their election.

(4) Meetings of the society (including only what

is essential, leaving details to the by-laws).

(5) How to amend the constitution.

These can be arranged in five articles, or, the first one may be divided into two, in which case there would be six articles. Usually some of the articles should be divided into sections. Nothing should be placed in the constitution that may be suspended, except in the case of requiring elections of officers to be by ballot, in which case the requirement may be qualified so as to allow the ballot to be dispensed with by a unanimous vote when there is but one candidate for the office. The officers and board of managers or directors of an organization that meets only annually in convention, and the chairmen of such committees as it has authorized and has required to report to the convention, should be, if present at the convention, ex-officio members thereof, and provision for this should be made in the constitution. The constitution should require previous notice of an amendment and also a two-thirds or three-fourths vote for its adoption. Where the meetings are frequent, an amendment should not be allowed to be made except at a quarterly or annual meeting, after having been proposed at the previous quarterly meeting. [see Amendments to Constitutions, etc., 68.]

By-laws should include all the rules that are of such importance that they cannot be changed in any way without previous notice, except those placed in the constitution and the rules of order. Few societies adopt any special rules of order of their own under that name, contenting themselves with putting a few such rules in their by-laws and then adopting some standard work on parliamentary law as their authority. When a society is incorporated the charter may take the place of the constitution, and in such a case the by-laws would contain all the rules of the society, except those in the charter that cannot be changed without previous notice. The by-laws should always provide for their amendment as shown in 68, and also for a quorum, 64. If it is desired to permit the suspension of any by-law it should be specifically provided for. By-laws, except those relating to business procedure, cannot be suspended, unless they expressly provide for their suspension. By-laws in the nature of rules of order may be suspended by a two-thirds vote, as stated in 22.

The duties of the presiding and recording officers of a deliberative assembly are defined in 58 and 59. But in many societies other duties are required of the president and the secretary, and these, together with the duties of the other officers, if any, should be defined in the by-laws. If a society wishes to provide for honorary officers or members, it is well to do so in the by-laws. Unless the by-laws state the contrary, these positions are simply complimentary, carrying with them the right to attend the meetings and to speak, but not to make motions or to vote. Honorary presidents and vice presidents should sit on the platform, but they do not, by virtue of their honorary office, preside. An honorary office is not strictly an office, and in no way conflicts with a member's holding a real office, or being assigned any duty whatever, the same as if he did not hold the honorary office. Like a college honorary degree, it is perpetual, unless rescinded. So it is proper, where desired, to include in the published list of honorary officers the names of all upon whom the honor has been conferred, even though deceased.

Rules of Order should contain only the rules relating to the orderly transaction of business in the meetings and to the duties of the officers. There is no reason why most of these rules should not be the same for all ordinary societies, and there is a great advantage in uniformity of procedure, so far as possible, in all societies all over the country. Societies should, therefore, adopt some generally accepted rules of order, or parliamentary manual, as their authority, and then adopt only such special rules of order as are needed to supplement their parliamentary authority. Every society, in its by-laws or rules of order, should adopt a rule like this: "The rules contained in [specifying the work on parliamentary practice] shall govern the society in all cases to which they are applicable, and in which they are not inconsistent with the by-laws or the special rules of order of this society." Without such a rule, any one so disposed can cause great trouble in a meeting.

Standing Rules should contain only such rules as may be adopted without previous notice by a majority vote at any business meeting. The vote on their adoption, or their amendment, before or after adoption, may be reconsidered. At any meeting they may be suspended by a majority vote, or they may be amended or rescinded by a two-thirds vote. If notice of the proposed action was given at a previous meeting or in the call for this meeting, they may be amended or rescinded by a majority vote. As a majority may suspend any of them for that meeting, these rules do not interfere with the freedom of any meeting and therefore require no notice in order to adopt them. Generally they are not adopted at the organization of a society, but from time to time as they are needed. Sometimes the by-laws of a society are called standing rules, but it is better to follow the usual classification of rules as given in this section. The following is an example of a standing rule:

Resolved, That the meetings of this society from April 1 to September 30 shall begin at 7:30 P.M., and during the rest of the year at 8 P.M.

No standing rule, or resolution, or motion is in order that conflicts with the constitution, or by-laws, or rules of order, or standing rules.

You are being lied to.

Someone cited an irrelevant passage from an out-of-print edition.

You asked:

"Can a motion be made, and then can the president find you out of order before the motion is voted on because your motion is against the decision of what the president wants done?"

No. - You won't find any allusion to "what the president wants done" in R.O.R. Article 67.

What the president wants, is irrelevant.

[Josh Martin]

Apparently the reference that is being used is that "cannot overturn Presidents decision in any forum" see roberts rules Article 11, section 67. Constitutions,Bylaws and Rules of order.

Your President is either making stuff up or is referring to some third-party knockoff. There is no language to that effect either in the section he is referring to in the 4th edition, or anywhere else in an official edition of Robert's Rules of Order.

[abcdave]

Apparently the reference that is being used is that "cannot overturn Presidents decision in any forum" see roberts rules Article 11, section 67. Constitutions,Bylaws and Rules of order.

This information was provided because of a attempt that will be made at a general membership meeting which will try and use the membership and its body to overturn a decision that was made by the President which is unfavorable by the membership. The President has stressed that any kind of motion will be squashed and called out of order if the attempt is made. The President is stateing that this Article is the basis of there arguement and that once a President has made a decision there is no way to overturn it. Regardless in a General Memembership meeting and by a motion placed by a member of this quorum

The bylaws should specify exactly what the parliamentary authority is i.e. "The latest edition of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised". It's usually just a couple of bucks to buy The Book (unless you need to get some 100 year old out-of-print manuscript!) Then, you can hand him your copy (it's a safe bet that he doesn't have one)and ask him to show you what he is talking about. He won't even try.

BTW I know there is a new edition coming out "soon" - but I'm still thinking I'll wait for the movie!

[Gary Novosielski]

BTW I know there is a new edition coming out "soon" - but I'm still thinking I'll wait for the movie!

Oh I hope it's in 3D Imax! Imagine the motion "to Reconsider and Enter on the Minutes" on the Big Screen!