Quorom question

[Guest GuestJim3rd]

The following is a quote formt he Presbyterian book of order:

The quorum of a meeting of the congregation shall be not less

than one tenth of the members unless the particular church upon

application to the presbytery shall obtain the consent of the presbytery

to a provision for a smaller quorum

This would imply to me that we would need to know in advance the total membership number so that we could figure out what 10% would be. If the total membership number is not available, I would hold that an election could not be held until that number was arrived at. True or false?

Thanks.

[Larry Cisar]

The following is a quote formt he Presbyterian book of order:

The quorum of a meeting of the congregation shall be not less

than one tenth of the members unless the particular church upon

application to the presbytery shall obtain the consent of the presbytery

to a provision for a smaller quorum

This would imply to me that we would need to know in advance the total membership number so that we could figure out what 10% would be. If the total membership number is not available, I would hold that an election could not be held until that number was arrived at. True or false?

Thanks.

Could it held? Yes.

Could it be challenged if proven that a quorum was not present? Yes.

If the membership believed that a quorum was present, they could go forward with the election. It would need to be proven later that a quorum was not present.

[Trina]

The following is a quote formt he Presbyterian book of order:

The quorum of a meeting of the congregation shall be not less

than one tenth of the members unless the particular church upon

application to the presbytery shall obtain the consent of the presbytery

to a provision for a smaller quorum

This would imply to me that we would need to know in advance the total membership number so that we could figure out what 10% would be. If the total membership number is not available, I would hold that an election could not be held until that number was arrived at. True or false?

Thanks.

Along the same lines as Mr. Cisar's response, it seems to me you have three possibilities:

1) You're sure you have quorum (for example, membership is roughly 300, and there are 70 people at the meeting).

2) You're sure you don't have quorum (for example, membership is roughly 300, and only 15 people show up).

3) You're not sure (for example, membership is roughly 300, and you have 30 people at the meeting).

In the latter case, if an accurate record is kept of attendance at the meeting, the existence of quorum could still be checked after the meeting. Since the conduct of business at a meeting without quroum is a continuing breach (described on RONR p. 244), a point of order could be raised at any time in the future regarding the lack of quorum. Actions taken at the inquorate meeting would be null and void. In other words, if the assembly in good faith goes ahead with an election, an error due to lack of quorum can still be addressed after the fact.

Of course, the remedy is sort of a pain in the neck -- why not just try to have an accurate membership count going into the meeting?

[hmtcastle]

If the total membership number is not available, I would hold that an election could not be held until that number was arrived at. True or false?

Maybe true, maybe false.

If, for example, you knew that the church membership was around one hundred, give or take twenty-five, and fifty members showed up, I think there'd be little support for a claim that a quorum wasn't present.

That said, if you don't know how many members you have, perhaps you shouldn't be holding meetings in the first place. You'll have to be able to determine who is a member in order to permit them to vote and, if you can determine who is a member, you should be able to determine how many members you have. Go through the phone book and add up the names of all the people who can vote in your election.

[Josh Martin]

The quorum of a meeting of the congregation shall be not less

than one tenth of the members unless the particular church upon

application to the presbytery shall obtain the consent of the presbytery

to a provision for a smaller quorum

This would imply to me that we would need to know in advance the total membership number so that we could figure out what 10% would be. If the total membership number is not available, I would hold that an election could not be held until that number was arrived at. True or false?

If the assembly has no reliable record of the current membership, then it is unwise to prescribe a quorum based on a percentage of the total membership. Perhaps you should try to "obtain the consent of the presbytery" for a fixed quorum.

That said, if you don't know how many members you have, perhaps you shouldn't be holding meetings in the first place.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Many societies have no reliable record of how many members the society has. This is very common in churches and alumni associations. Membership is often vaguely defined in such societies (much like membership for a mass meeting). Such societies can get along just fine, but a fixed quorum would be more advisable than a percentage in such cases.

[hmtcastle]

If the assembly has no reliable record of the current membership, then it is unwise to prescribe a quorum based on a percentage of the total membership. Perhaps you should try to "obtain the consent of the presbytery" for a fixed quorum.

Although if you don't know how many members there are, then you don't know what 10% of that number is and, therefore, you won't know what a "smaller" quorum would be (apart from an equally unhelpful lower percentage). In other words, if "smaller" is the only option, who knows if any given fixed number would be smaller than 10% of an unknown number.

[Josh Martin]

Although if you don't know how many members there are, then you don't know what 10% of that number is and, therefore, you won't know what a "smaller" quorum would be (apart from an equally unhelpful lower percentage). In other words, if "smaller" is the only option, who knows if any given fixed number would be smaller than 10% of an unknown number.

Fair enough. The assembly may have to endeavor to change the rule entirely, if there truly is no reliable record of the membership.

If, as you and Trina suggest, the society has (or should have) a reliable record of the membership, but it has simply been poorly maintained, the solution is to fix the record.