Guest Lew Posted May 12, 2012 at 10:13 PM Report Share Posted May 12, 2012 at 10:13 PM At our recent HOA Annual Meeting the election of Directors took place. The Bylaws permit Cumulative Voting. There were 3 open positions and 4 nominees. Since there are 144 condominiums, each unit has a fractional vote.The Management Company mailed limited proxies where the owner designated the vote. The Management company incorrectly stated that the owner did not have to assign the proxy to a holder. The Association attorney is now claiming that these proxies , although traditional accepted in the past, are not legal and should be discarded because they were not assigned to a person.The Management company tabulates the proxy votes in an Excel spreadsheet prior to the meeting. If an owner attends the meeting and votes by written ballot, the proxy is deleted from the computer.The problem is that one owner signed in, his was given a ballot, and his proxy vote removed from the computer spreadsheet. He later returned the ballot to the Management Company, but they failed to reenter his proxy votes into the computer.The Teller Committee only counted the ballots submitted at the meeting. The proxies votes were already in the computer spreadsheet with the exception of the omitted proxy.The votes were tallied and the elected directors announced by the Chairman at the meeting. The meeting was adjorned and immediately after the directors met in a board meeting to elect officers. The actual vote count was not announced at the meeting.A week later the Management Company claimed that the did a recount and now realized their error in not re-entering the omitted proxy.The Association attorney has recommended that a Special Meeting be called for the members to vote for a recount. The Board has voted for a Special meeting in a few weeks. The difference of including the omitted proxy will change the results of the election.The attorney also recommended that the unassigned proxies not be counted. This would also change the results.The outcome would leave the Teller Committee to decide what votes to accept, and therefore, would leave the election results up to 3 members selected by the Chairman. It would also defeat the proncipal of Cumulative voting since the recount only requires a majority for approval.What is the proper format; let the electionstand and be final, call for a " recount" or a "revote"?How much authority does the Election/Teller have to add or delete votes at this time?Thank you in advance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary c Tesser Posted May 13, 2012 at 07:35 AM Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 at 07:35 AM Umm ...(19 views in 10 hours, no replies. Huh.)Some thoughts:Start by looking at FAQ #10, about proxies.I don't think any Tellers Committee has the authority to decide what votes to accept.I don't think a re-count is appropriate if there is no doubt of the accuracy of the first count. There isn't, is there?And, "an election may be contested ... if a number of members sufficient to affect the result are improperly prevented from voting in an election" (RONR, 11th Ed, p. 445 - 446). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lew Posted May 13, 2012 at 02:35 PM Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 at 02:35 PM The Teller Committee count at the meeting was correct. It is not being disputed. State Statute regarding Proxies reads:"An appointment of a proxy is effective when received by the secretary or other officer or agent authorized to tabulate votes." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted May 13, 2012 at 02:40 PM Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 at 02:40 PM State Statute regarding Proxies reads: "An appointment of a proxy is effective when received by the secretary or other officer or agent authorized to tabulate votes."The Association attorney is now claiming that these proxies , although traditional accepted in the past, are not legal and should be discarded because they were not assigned to a person.Makes sense to me but you need an attorney, not a parliamentarian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lew Posted May 13, 2012 at 02:54 PM Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 at 02:54 PM What is the proper format; let the election stand and be final, call for a " recount" or a "revote"?How much authority does the Election/TellerCommittee have to add or delete votes at this time?The omitted vote was not given to the Teller Committee at the meeting. They now want to have it included in a recount. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted May 13, 2012 at 03:06 PM Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 at 03:06 PM What is the proper format; let the election stand and be final, call for a " recount" or a "revote"?I don't think a re-count is appropriate if there is no doubt of the accuracy of the first count. There isn't, is there?How much authority does the Election/TellerCommittee have to add or delete votes at this time?I don't think any Tellers Committee has the authority to decide what votes to accept.Please pay attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Ed Posted May 13, 2012 at 05:27 PM Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 at 05:27 PM Normally proxy issues are outside the scope of RONR and have to be allowed, in detail, by either the By-laws of the organization or a statute governing the organization. The best answer would be for you to review the legislation covering HOAs in your jurisdiction. That being said, normally a proxy would have to include a name of the person who will be representing the member/owner at the meeting. Some organizations will include a line like this to cover all bases: "I/we designate _______________, or if absent the President, to reprent me/we at the meeting." That way if no one specific is appointed, the President can still hold the proxy and make it a legal document for the meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted May 13, 2012 at 08:05 PM Report Share Posted May 13, 2012 at 08:05 PM The problem is that one owner signed in, his was given a ballot, and his proxy vote removed from the computer spreadsheet. He later returned the ballot to the Management Company, but they failed to reenter his proxy votes into the computer.I don't know....... it seems to me that when the member showed up, signed in, and was given a ballot, he effectively retracted his proxy vote. If he returned the (blank?) ballot to the Management Company rather than to the tellers, he had effectively abstained. That's how I'd interpret it.The Management Company mailed limited proxies where the owner designated the vote. The Management company incorrectly stated that the owner did not have to assign the proxy to a holder. The Association attorney is now claiming that these proxies , although traditional accepted in the past, are not legal and should be discarded because they were not assigned to a person.RONR states a proxy is a "power of attorney given by one person to another to vote in his stead; the term also designates the person who holds the power of attorney." (RONR 11th Ed., p. 428 ll. 28-30) It would appear from this that the attorney is correct. Whether your custom in accepting them in the past carries any weight may be more of a legal question than a parliamentary one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lew Posted May 14, 2012 at 03:17 PM Report Share Posted May 14, 2012 at 03:17 PM This being the case, where the proxies are invalid, does the Teller Committee have the authority to eliminate them in a Recount? Does the invalid proxies call for a revote (ie. new election)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted May 18, 2012 at 01:24 AM Report Share Posted May 18, 2012 at 01:24 AM One more time: The teller committee does not have the authority to decide what is valid and what is not. Keep asking, and you will keep getting the same answer.The assembly itself is the judge of all questions arising that are incidental to the voting or the counting of the votes. In an election by ballot, for example, the tellers should refer to the assembly for decision all questions on which there is any uncertainty (see p. 416, ll. 12–19).--Robert, Henry M. III (2011-09-27). Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, 11th edition (Kindle Locations 8018-8020). Perseus Books Group. Kindle Edition.I favor the view that by showing up in person and accepting a ballot, he rescinded his proxy. Unless he later signed a new one, he simply abstained from voting. What he did with his blank ballot does not seem to me to be relevant. The question is whether he issued another proxy or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Lew Posted May 19, 2012 at 03:14 PM Report Share Posted May 19, 2012 at 03:14 PM Thank you for your response. I have been reading RONR 11th Ed. and have a few more related questions.Pages 444-445 CONTESTING THE ANNOUNCED RESULTS OF AN ELECTION. Depending on the circumstances , the voting body may be able to order a recount if an election was conducted by ballot, roll-call or counted vote...Otherwise an election may be contested by raising a point of order...Pg. 423, LL 25-28, An organization should never adopt a bylaw permitting a question to be decided by a voting procedure in which the votes of persons who attend a meeting are counted together with ballots mailed in by absentees.Proxy voting is not addressed as a procedure permitting a "Recount" to take place. If it is assumed that the Directed (limited) proxies were a form of Ballot or Counted vote would the argument that the proxies were invalid become a mute argument. If the proxies are counted as a ballot, then there would be less reason for a Recount. Can you classify the proxies as a ballot under Contesting the Election and then later eliminate them in the Assembly for being invalid?Pg. 418 -419, After completion of an election or balloting on a motion , unless the voting body directs otherwise, the tellers place the ballots and tally sheets in the custody of the Secretary , who keeps them under seal until the time within which a recount may be ordered expires, (emphasis added).Pg. 416, LL 16 -19, When reporting doubtful ballot, the tellers must be careful whenever posible not to show how the decision would affect any of the candidates.The ballots have not been held under seal. The Managaement Company has already opened them and reported how a Recount would effect the outcome of the election. Is a recount still proper after this informaation has been made public? Additionally, the Teller Committee's count was not announced at the meeting. The Management Company announced the count a week later when they recommended a Recount.The Teller Committee never saw any of the proxy votes for a count. The teller Committee did not compare the Directed proxy to the actual ballots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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