Fraudulent Ballots

[Guest Elle]

Our Club recently held a re-elction for the Vice President,because of a tie,and a majority vote was determined for the Vice President. The ballot also had one position open for a board member with a write in line. There is a member's name written in for this board position, however, the handwriting with this members name is the same on 8 of the ballots. How do we handle these ballots???

[Chris Harrison]

Our Club recently held a re-elction for the Vice President,because of a tie,and a majority vote was determined for the Vice President. The ballot also had one position open for a board member with a write in line. There is a member's name written in for this board position, however, the handwriting with this members name is the same on 8 of the ballots. How do we handle these ballots???

Did you all count the ballots and compare it to the number of members who were there when the vote was taken? How did they match? Was there more ballots than members present? Less? The same?

[Kim Goldsworthy]

...

The ballot also had one position open for a board member with a write in line.

There is a member's name written in for this board position,

however,

the handwriting with this members name is the same on 8 of the ballots.

How do we handle these ballots?

Are you saying that your question is, "Are these 8 ballots cast from the same person (where the identical handwriting supports this hypothesis)?"

I cannot answer that question.

First, you must DECIDE -- Are these 8 ballots from one person? Are these 8 ballots legitimate?

THEN, there are options for you.

If the ballots are legitimate, then count them.

If the ballots are not legitimate, then don't count them.

What do you have in mind?

[Gary Novosielski]

Our Club recently held a re-elction for the Vice President,because of a tie,and a majority vote was determined for the Vice President. The ballot also had one position open for a board member with a write in line. There is a member's name written in for this board position, however, the handwriting with this members name is the same on 8 of the ballots. How do we handle these ballots???

How were the ballots collected? Were there adequate measures in place to ensure that each member turned in no more than one ballot?

[David A Foulkes]

Our Club recently held a re-elction for the Vice President,because of a tie,and a majority vote was determined for the Vice President.

Okay, so you voted on the VP, and the count of the ballots was a tie, so......... do you mean that you all decided that since at least half of the votes was for the sitting VP you announced him/her the winner? Or..... did you revote, as you should have, and the second round had a majority for one candidate?

Or, was this a second round of voting, after a previous election at some prior meeting resulted in a tie, so this time the VP received a majority?

There is a member's name written in for this board position, however, the handwriting with this members name is the same on 8 of the ballots. How do we handle these ballots???

What was the outcome of the vote for this other position? Could those other 7 votes, apparently cast by the same member, affect the result? That is, if you did not count them, or counted them as illegal votes, would any one candidate still have received a majority of votes for this position?

And were there not tellers who distributed the ballots, making sure each member received only one? Or were the ballots left on a table for members to take as many as they like?

I know, I know... so many questions.

[Gary Novosielski]

And were there not tellers who distributed the ballots, making sure each member received only one? Or were the ballots left on a table for members to take as many as they like?

The most important point is not really the distribution of ballots, but the collecting of them. After all, the ballots might just be sheets of plain paper.

But if the casting of the votes is carefully controlled, e.g., by having each member identify himself, initial his name on a list of legal voters, and hand his ballot, folded twice, to a teller, who drops it into a locked ballot box, it won't much matter if anyone has a ream of extra ballots stashed away someplace.

[Guest Elle]

Okay, so you voted on the VP, and the count of the ballots was a tie, so......... do you mean that you all decided that since at least half of the votes was for the sitting VP you announced him/her the winner? Or..... did you revote, as you should have, and the second round had a majority for one candidate?

Or, was this a second round of voting, after a previous election at some prior meeting resulted in a tie, so this time the VP received a majority?

What was the outcome of the vote for this other position? Could those other 7 votes, apparently cast by the same member, affect the result? That is, if you did not count them, or counted them as illegal votes, would any one candidate still have received a majority of votes for this position?

And were there not tellers who distributed the ballots, making sure each member received only one? Or were the ballots left on a table for members to take as many as they like?

I know, I know... so many questions.

first election resulted in a tie for the VP, ballots were sent out by mail a second time, which resulted in a majority vote for the VP. There are 8 ballots from this second set of ballots that have the same handwritting,as a write in, for the same member for a board position. The Talley Chair showed these 8 ballots to the President, VP, and Secretary who feel that the handwritting is by the same person. In the first and re-election the ballots were sent out to members with 2 ballots to family(two adults)members and one ballot to a single member and business as per the Club Bylaws.

If the ballots are made invalid then the one candidate for the VP who had the majority vote would loose those 8 votes reuslting in the other candidate having the majority vote. Correct?

[Chris Harrison]

first election resulted in a tie for the VP, ballots were sent out by mail a second time, which resulted in a majority vote for the VP. There are 8 ballots from this second set of ballots that have the same handwritting,as a write in, for the same member for a board position. The Talley Chair showed these 8 ballots to the President, VP, and Secretary who feel that the handwritting is by the same person. In the first and re-election the ballots were sent out to members with 2 ballots to family(two adults)members and one ballot to a single member and business as per the Club Bylaws.

If the ballots are made invalid then the one candidate for the VP who had the majority vote would loose those 8 votes reuslting in the other candidate having the majority vote. Correct?

The first question is if your bylaws specifically allow for voting by mail? If they don't you can't do it (RONR pp. 408-409) so the whole problem would be moot since all the elections would be null and void (RONR p. 244d) and you would have to hold the election at a properly called meeting.

The second question is if those 8 ballots would have affected who won the election for VP and the Board member?

The third question is how do you know that those 8 ballots were all written by the same person (just saying that the handwriting looks the same isn't enough to throw out the vote unless someone is a handwriting expert IMO)?

The fourth question is how would the member have gotten an extra 6-7 ballots which brings up the question I asked in my original response, have you counted the votes and does it show that there were more ballots received then there are members?

[Josh Martin]

If the ballots are made invalid then the one candidate for the VP who had the majority vote would loose those 8 votes reuslting in the other candidate having the majority vote. Correct?

If it is determined that all eight ballots were cast by the same person, then the eight ballots would collectively be recorded as one illegal vote. This vote would not be credited toward either candidate, but would count for purposes of computing a majority. I don't know how close the election was, so I don't know if this would make a difference. I also agree with Chris H. that I would want a bit more proof than "the handwriting looks the same" before tossing out votes, particularly if it would change the outcome of an election.

[Guest Elle]

The first question is if your bylaws specifically allow for voting by mail? If they don't you can't do it (RONR pp. 408-409) so the whole problem would be moot since all the elections would be null and void (RONR p. 244d) and you would have to hold the election at a properly called meeting.

The Bylaws say :All offical ballots will be distributed by mail,by the Secretary,to all members of the member roster, thirty(30) days prior to the scheduled Annual Meeting. This was done by the Secretary, with 2 ballots sent by mail to members with a family membership(2 adults-18yrs) and one ballot sent to a single member and one to a business. This election resulted in a tie for the VP. The same procedure was done for the re-relection(second set of ballots) for the VP, which resulted in one candidate having a majority vote.

The second question is if those 8 ballots would have affected who won the election for VP and the Board member?

The 8 ballots with the same handwriting for the same member for a board position is being challenged. If they are deemed invalid and thrown out, then the candidate who got the majority vote for VP with the second set of ballots would not have the majority vote and the other candidate would have the majority vote.

The third question is how do you know that those 8 ballots were all written by the same person (just saying that the handwriting looks the same isn't enough to throw out the vote unless someone is a handwriting expert IMO)? All of the Officers and elected board and the Tally Chair feel that the handwriting is the same.

Should the ballots be sent to a handwritting expert???

The fourth question is how would the member have gotten an extra 6-7 ballots which brings up the question I asked in my original response, have you counted the votes and does it show that there were more ballots received then there are members? Not all members sent back their ballots, only got about 1/2 of the total ballots sent out.

This is what is in question: if someone got ballots from members and maked the ballots with the write in name for the board position and then sent them back in the enclosed envelope address to the Club PO Box. Is this consdidered fraud and therefore makes these ballots for the board member invalid.

[Josh Martin]

Is this consdidered fraud and therefore makes these ballots for the board member invalid.

Fraud is a legal term, but as I said, if it is determined that all eight ballots were cast by the same person, then the eight ballots would collectively be recorded as one illegal vote. This vote would not be credited toward either candidate, but would count for purposes of computing a majority.

[David A Foulkes]

Would one of them be valid, and the other seven be illegal? Or would all eight be considered illegal?

[Josh Martin]

Would at least one of them be valid, and the other seven be illegal? Or would all eight be considered illegal?

They would collectively be recorded as one illegal vote. It's the same as if a member folds two ballots together. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 401, lines 28-32) I should note that I am still very uneasy about the idea of using inexperienced handwriting analysis as the only basis for the determination that all eight ballots were cast by the same member.

[hmtcastle]

This is what is in question: if someone got ballots from members and maked the ballots with the write in name for the board position and then sent them back in the enclosed envelope address to the Club PO Box. Is this consdidered fraud and therefore makes these ballots for the board member invalid.

You'll have to figure this one out for yourselves. But if I give my ballot to another member and he submits it (with the name of a write-in candidate), I'm not sure there's fraud. It's more like an (informal) vote by proxy. Pretty sloppy but who's to blame? The member who gave his ballot to another member? The member who submitted the ballot? The members who set up this crappy system of voting?

[Josh Martin]

The members who set up this crappy system of voting?

This is a fair point. It seems likely that the assembly is not using the "double envelope" method recommended by RONR, otherwise any attempts at cheating would have likely been caught when the envelopes were received. (RONR, 10th ed., pgs. 409-411)

[Gary Novosielski]

If it is determined that all eight ballots were cast by the same person, then the eight ballots would collectively be recorded as one illegal vote.

But even if the handwriting is the same, there is a difference between the ballots being "cast" by one person, and the ballots being "filled out" by one person.

Suppose I'm running for office, and having dinner with seven friends, all of whom are members of the Society. They all agree to vote for me, but have trouble spelling my last name. (I know it's far fetched, with an easy name like mine, but bear with me.)

"Do you have your ballots with you?", I ask.

"Of course! We carry them everywhere we go," they reply.

"Good", I tell them, "Let me have them a moment and I'll fill in my name correctly." I do so, and hand them back. They thank me, and they mail them in, according to the rules.

Where is the fraud?

If you want to prove fraud, you're going to need to check your procedures for mail-in ballots. Are you using the two-envelope method? Is the inner envelope signed by the member? Are the signatures all in the same handwriting? Are there duplicates? Are they checked against the membership list to see that nobody voted more than once, and that the ballots came from voting members?

Those are the sorts of things you need to have in place to guard against fraud. If you have them, what were the results? Did they detect any fraud?

If so, the handwriting doesn't matter. And if not, the handwriting doesn't matter.

In other words, the handwriting doesn't matter. By itself, it proves nothing.

[Guest Elle]

This is a fair point. It seems likely that the assembly is not using the "double envelope" method recommended by RONR, otherwise any attempts at cheating would have likely been caught when the envelopes were received. (RONR, 10th ed., pgs. 409-411)

[Josh Martin]

But even if the handwriting is the same, there is a difference between the ballots being "cast" by one person, and the ballots being "filled out" by one person.

Suppose I'm running for office, and having dinner with seven friends, all of whom are members of the Society. They all agree to vote for me, but have trouble spelling my last name. (I know it's far fetched, with an easy name like mine, but bear with me.)

"Do you have your ballots with you?", I ask.

"Of course! We carry them everywhere we go," they reply.

"Good", I tell them, "Let me have them a moment and I'll fill in my name correctly." I do so, and hand them back. They thank me, and they mail them in, according to the rules.

Where is the fraud?

Yes, this is another excellent reason why, if I were a member of the assembly or of the tellers committee, I would not accept a handwriting analysis (especially by a non-expert) as proof in and of itself. It might raise eyebrows and suggest that further investigation is warranted, but I would not feel comfortable tossing ballots out based on that information alone.

[Guest Elle]

In reply to not using the "double envelope" method recommened by RONR pg. 410, line 1-5:".......with full instructions for marking and returning by the required date;and (2) a specilly recongizable, self-addressed return envelope with the name and address of the secetary,the chairman of tellers,or other person designated to receive the ballot."

The Secretary sent a letter of instructions for marking and returning by the end of the year and an envelope with the Club return address and addressed to the Club PO Box with the ballots to each of the members of the Club. The Secretary is designated to recieve all mail including the election ballots. I feel that the Club has followed this method in the first and second elections.

Since the majority advice given is that the 8 ballots should not be deemed invalid unless they are examined by a handwritting expert and if they are deemed invalid then they should be collectively recorded as one illegal vote, not to be credited toward either candidate, this is what will be presented to the members who are challenging them. I thank you all for your advice.

[Josh Martin]

In reply to not using the "double envelope" method recommened by RONR pg. 410, line 1-5:".......with full instructions for marking and returning by the required date;and (2) a specilly recongizable, self-addressed return envelope with the name and address of the secetary,the chairman of tellers,or other person designated to receive the ballot."

The double envelope method actually is the next paragraph down. You're looking at the procedure for a mail vote which is not to be secret. I highly advise you read through the double envelope method, as the procedure helps to ensure both the secrecy of the ballots and the security of the election. I think had the society had followed this procedure, you wouldn't be in the mess you're in now.

Since the majority advice given is that the 8 ballots should not be deemed invalid unless they are examined by a handwritting expert and if they are deemed invalid then they should be collectively recorded as one illegal vote, not to be credited toward either candidate, this is what will be presented to the members who are challenging them.

Well, I think the more important point that most of us have focused on is that an analysis of the handwriting should not be used as the only method of proof (regardless of whether it is conducted by an expert). Nonetheless, at this point it is ultimately the society which will determine how to proceed.

[Gary Novosielski]

Since the majority advice given is that the 8 ballots should not be deemed invalid unless they are examined by a handwritting expert and if they are deemed invalid then they should be collectively recorded as one illegal vote, not to be credited toward either candidate, this is what will be presented to the members who are challenging them. I thank you all for your advice.

I don't believe that was the majority opinion. RONR has nothing to say about "handwriting experts".

I think the consensus was that if you did not detect fraud by any other means, handwriting is not an issue.