sfraser Posted April 15, 2011 at 05:00 AM Report Share Posted April 15, 2011 at 05:00 AM Hello: Got some conflicting information on this particular issue. Our constitution (for a community college Associated Students body) specifies pretty clearly that RONR 9th Ed is to be used by the body. I also remember reading, but I can't remember for the life of me where, that if a body adopts RONR as its parliamentary manual, it automatically rolls into using the latest edition which is currently the 10th. So: given that our constitution specifies the 9th edition, is there some provision in the 9th edition that would allow us to just change over to the 10th edition? Or would we have to amend our constitution to either update the edition or remove reference to an edition number altogether? I'm reticent over the constitutional change, however, since the process of amending our constitution is wholly complicated and arduous. Thanks in advance! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted April 15, 2011 at 09:45 AM Report Share Posted April 15, 2011 at 09:45 AM is there some provision in the 9th edition that would allow us to just change over to the 10th edition?I don't have the 9th edition but, according to the 10th edition, if your bylaws specify a particular edition, that's the one you'll have to use until and unless you amend your bylaws. That said, I doubt that there's much substantive difference between the two so the vast majority of your business should be unaffected. I'm sure those with access to the 9th will comment if that statement is incorrect. So stay tuned.See "How Your Organization Can Adopt Roberts Rules" for the recommend bylaws language. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted April 15, 2011 at 12:14 PM Report Share Posted April 15, 2011 at 12:14 PM That said, I doubt that there's much substantive difference between the two so the vast majority of your business should be unaffected. However, with the imminent release of RONR 11, it might just be a good idea to get started on the "wholly complicated and arduous" task of amending the constitution language to allow its use. It might take that long! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted April 15, 2011 at 01:46 PM Report Share Posted April 15, 2011 at 01:46 PM And when you do the "arduous task" change the edition specification to "current edition". That way your rollover will be automatic next time.But that means that you will have to keep buying updated copies of RONR from time to time... but that is the whole point of this website, isn't it!Right, Dan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alanh49 Posted April 15, 2011 at 01:53 PM Report Share Posted April 15, 2011 at 01:53 PM However, with the imminent release of RONR 11, it might just be a good idea to get started on the "wholly complicated and arduous" task of amending the constitution language to allow its use. It might take that long!I wonder could they adopt the current edition as a special rule of order? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted April 15, 2011 at 01:54 PM Report Share Posted April 15, 2011 at 01:54 PM But that means that you will have to keep buying updated copies of RONR from time to time... but that is the whole point of this website, isn't it!Right, Dan?The whole point? No. The main point? No. Are we be happy if it has some positive effect on book sales? Yeah, sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted April 15, 2011 at 02:25 PM Report Share Posted April 15, 2011 at 02:25 PM "Are we be happy"??!!??I sure hope that RONR/11 had a good technical editor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfraser Posted April 16, 2011 at 07:00 PM Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2011 at 07:00 PM I wonder could they adopt the current edition as a special rule of order?That would interest me; at least for an interim position. 9th editions are a little harder to find than I'd first thought. When I say complicated and arduous, a constitutional amendment can be done in two ways: one by legislative petition, and one by executive board. The latter is the easier option: One of our Exec Board officers sponsors the amendment, which then goes to our second leg. body, the Council. Council certifies it as being consistent, then it goes to the Exec Board for vote (2/3 approval) - then, we have to wait til the next election cycle for it to be included and put to member vote, which then requires 2/3 of the voting body. Since there's no existing provision to call a special election to deal with a constitutional matter, that means waiting a year. Unless I've missed something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted April 16, 2011 at 08:18 PM Report Share Posted April 16, 2011 at 08:18 PM 9th editions are a little harder to find than I'd first thought.Well, you'd only need one copy (which you can buy on eBay for less than six bucks).Or you could simply follow the rules in the current edition and, if someone wants to raise a point of order, the burden of proof would be on them to produce a contrary rule in the 9th edition. And then, at least, you'd have your copy of the 9th.Again, I find it hard to believe you'll come across any substantial variance.Or, to put it another way, what do you think the 9th edition permits or prohibits that the 10th edition doesn't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted April 16, 2011 at 08:47 PM Report Share Posted April 16, 2011 at 08:47 PM Well, you'd only need one copy (which you can buy on eBay for less than six bucks).Or you could simply follow the rules in the current edition and, if someone wants to raise a point of order, the burden of proof would be on them to produce a contrary rule in the 9th edition. And then, at least, you'd have your copy of the 9th.Again, I find it hard to believe you'll come across any substantial variance.Or, to put it another way, what do you think the 9th edition permits or prohibits that the 10th edition doesn't? The Preface to the !0th Edition tells you quite a bit about the differences between it and the 9th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfraser Posted April 16, 2011 at 10:06 PM Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2011 at 10:06 PM Well, you'd only need one copy (which you can buy on eBay for less than six bucks).Or you could simply follow the rules in the current edition and, if someone wants to raise a point of order, the burden of proof would be on them to produce a contrary rule in the 9th edition. And then, at least, you'd have your copy of the 9th.Again, I find it hard to believe you'll come across any substantial variance.Or, to put it another way, what do you think the 9th edition permits or prohibits that the 10th edition doesn't?There's nothing specific about the editions that I am concerned about - rather I'm trying to ensure that, after a spate of periods where our elected officers weren't actually following their own rules very well (be it RONR, Bylaw, P&P or otherwise), we actually return to a state where we're in complete compliance - and this is one of the points of contention that's been raised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted April 16, 2011 at 10:10 PM Report Share Posted April 16, 2011 at 10:10 PM this is one of the points of contention that's been raised.Given the fact that the publication of the 11th edition is imminent, and that you should be amending your bylaws to reflect the recommend wording (i.e. the "current" edition), I would think conforming to the 9th, as opposed to the 8th or the 10th, would be pretty far down the list of things to do.But, again, a copy of the 9th can be in your hands in a matter of days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfraser Posted April 16, 2011 at 10:12 PM Author Report Share Posted April 16, 2011 at 10:12 PM Given the fact that the publication of the 11th edition is imminent, and that you should be amending your bylaws to reflect the recommend wording (i.e. the "current" edition), I would think conforming to the 9th, as opposed to the 8th or the 10th, would be pretty far down the list of things to do.But, again, a copy of the 9th can be in your hands in a matter of days.Right, at this point we're going to go with the current 10th that we have, and start the constitutional change process. Thanks for the advice, all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tctheatc Posted April 16, 2011 at 11:35 PM Report Share Posted April 16, 2011 at 11:35 PM So: given that our constitution specifies the 9th edition, is there some provision in the 9th edition that would allow us to just change over to the 10th edition? Or would we have to amend our constitution to either update the edition or remove reference to an edition number altogether? I'm reticent over the constitutional change, however, since the process of amending our constitution is wholly complicated and arduous. The fact that it's difficult or inconvenient shouldn't stop you from doing what you seem to indicate is what you know should be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfraser Posted April 17, 2011 at 02:43 AM Author Report Share Posted April 17, 2011 at 02:43 AM The fact that it's difficult or inconvenient shouldn't stop you from doing what you seem to indicate is what you know should be done.I agree. The process will take a year. However, if I didn't need to do that, then I wouldn't have. Through this thread, it's become apparent that in the mean time we'll just deal with it as best we can and then wait for the process to make the final changeover, assuming it passes the popular vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted April 20, 2011 at 12:57 AM Report Share Posted April 20, 2011 at 12:57 AM Got some conflicting information on this particular issue. Our constitution (for a community college Associated Students body) specifies pretty clearly that RONR 9th Ed is to be used by the body. I also remember reading, but I can't remember for the life of me where, that if a body adopts RONR as its parliamentary manual, it automatically rolls into using the latest edition which is currently the 10th. So: given that our constitution specifies the 9th edition, is there some provision in the 9th edition that would allow us to just change over to the 10th edition? Or would we have to amend our constitution to either update the edition or remove reference to an edition number altogether?Since the Constitution references a specific edition, it will be necessary to amend the Constitution to change or remove the edition number. It would be preferable to remove the edition number altogether. I certainly wouldn't advise changing it to the "10th," since the 11th edition will likely be released by the time you finish amending your Constitution.See How Your Organization Can Adopt Robert's Rules for more information on the recommended wording.I wonder could they adopt the current edition as a special rule of order?No. A special rule of order may not conflict with the Bylaws.That would interest me; at least for an interim position. 9th editions are a little harder to find than I'd first thought. Based upon the changes discussed in RONR, 10th ed., pgs. xx-xxiii, it seems that most of the changes are clarifications and expansions of material in the 9th edition. The instances in which the text in the 9th and 10th editions would actually be in conflict are quite rare, so I doubt you will have any problems for now. I'm not certain about the extent of the changes in the 11th edition, but again, I doubt it will cause any problems for your organization until the amendment may be adopted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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