Absentee Voting Procedures

[redxfred]

In our poorly written bylaws (Which I, myself helped write poorly) We find the following general authority:

"In the case of issues for which ballots can be made and circulated in advance, voters who cannot attend a scheduled meeting can vote by absentee ballot before the meeting."

We now have a very contentious issue that will result in significant debate after the question is stated. Our opponent is trying to influence the vote by soliciting a large number of absentee votes in order to gain at least 2/3rds in their favor. We have no procedures published in our bylaws for verifying, witnessing, handling, counting, etc. the absentee votes.

Question #1: Is absentee ballot voting under these condition out of order?

Question #2: Can procedures be established simply by adopting a main motion at one of our council's meetings, or MUST we formally change the bylaws?

Question #3: If ballots are printed stating the question, and the text of the question is later amended during debate, are the absentee ballot votes still valid or are they null and void?

[Rob Elsman]

In our poorly written bylaws (Which I, myself helped write poorly) We find the following general authority:

"In the case of issues for which ballots can be made and circulated in advance, voters who cannot attend a scheduled meeting can vote by absentee ballot before the meeting."

We now have a very contentious issue that will result in significant debate after the question is stated. Our opponent is trying to influence the vote by soliciting a large number of absentee votes in order to gain at least 2/3rds in their favor. We have no procedures published in our bylaws for verifying, witnessing, handling, counting, etc. the absentee votes.

Question #1: Is absentee ballot voting under these condition out of order?

Question #2: Can procedures be established simply by adopting a main motion at one of our council's meetings, or MUST we formally change the bylaws?

Question #3: If ballots are printed stating the question, and the text of the question is later amended during debate, are the absentee ballot votes still valid or are they null and void?

An organization should never adopt rules that permit the counting of votes by absentees with those who actually attend a meeting. See RONR (10th ed.), p. 409.

[Guest Nancy N.]

An organization should never adopt rules that permit the counting of votes by absentees with those who actually attend a meeting. See RONR (10th ed.), p. 409.

So, Captain, was that helpful?

[David A Foulkes]

It's a bit of a conundrum. RONR says absentee voting is not allowed unless the bylaws permit it. (RONR 10th Ed., p. 408 l. 31 - p. 409 l. 2) It then goes on to note as Mr. Elsman has already, an "organization should never adopt a bylaw permitting a question to be decided by a voting procedure in which the votes of persons who attend a meeting are counted together with ballots mailed in by absentees." (p. 409 l. 4-7), although it uses should and not must. It's an admonishment (and a strong one, to be sure), not an absolute. The reasons are explained in l. 7-11.

1. Your bylaws authorize it, so it is not out of order as long as "ballots can be made and circulated in advance."

2. It would seem that any rules covering the process would need to be in the bylaws (p. 409 l. 1-2) To adopt rules and procedures at a meeting where the absentees themselves won't have any say does seem to be disenfranchising at best, null and void at worst. RONR offers some advice on how to handle some of those issues, beginning on page 409, for mail-in voting.

3. As noted in l. 7-11, the absentee votes may be on a different question altogether. If the motion is "to paint the barn red", and through amendment becomes "tear the barn down, and spend no more than $1000 to purchase a prefab storage unit", how would you apply an affirmative vote "to paint the barn red" to that? It doesn't quite qualify as a yes, it isn't an abstention, so it logically follows as being a no vote. But it was a yes vote to start with, and the member (being present and hearing debate) may well have changed his mind and gone along with the prefab idea anyway, so to count his vote as a no surely does not seem appropriate. Ergo, Mr. Elsman's citation.

[Rob Elsman]

It's a bit of a conundrum. RONR says absentee voting is not allowed unless the bylaws permit it. (RONR 10th Ed., p. 408 l. 31 - p. 409 l. 2) It then goes on to note as Mr. Elsman has already, an "organization should never adopt a bylaw permitting a question to be decided by a voting procedure in which the votes of persons who attend a meeting are counted together with ballots mailed in by absentees." (p. 409 l. 4-7), although it uses should and not must. It's an admonishment (and a strong one, to be sure), not an absolute. The reasons are explained in l. 7-11.

1. Your bylaws authorize it, so it is not out of order as long as "ballots can be made and circulated in advance."

2. It would seem that any rules covering the process would need to be in the bylaws (p. 409 l. 1-2) To adopt rules and procedures at a meeting where the absentees themselves won't have any say does seem to be disenfranchising at best, null and void at worst. RONR offers some advice on how to handle some of those issues, beginning on page 409, for mail-in voting.

3. As noted in l. 7-11, the absentee votes may be on a different question altogether. If the motion is "to paint the barn red", and through amendment becomes "tear the barn down, and spend no more than $1000 to purchase a prefab storage unit", how would you apply an affirmative vote "to paint the barn red" to that? It doesn't quite qualify as a yes, it isn't an abstention, so it logically follows as being a no vote. But it was a yes vote to start with, and the member (being present and hearing debate) may well have changed his mind and gone along with the prefab idea anyway, so to count his vote as a no surely does not seem appropriate. Ergo, Mr. Elsman's citation.

There's no use trying to make a silver purse out of a sow's ear.

[David A Foulkes]

There's no use trying to make a silver purse out of a sow's ear.

It was a slow morning.

[redxfred]

Ladies & Gentlemen,

You get an "A" for today. The advocates have acknowledged the impropriety of absentee ballots for this question and have announced that they will not be used!

One for our side (so far).

Thanks to you all.

Fred

[Josh Martin]

The advocates have acknowledged the impropriety of absentee ballots for this question and have announced that they will not be used!

Well, in the long run, your assembly should acknowledge the impropriety of combining absentee ballots with in-person votes for all questions and get rid of the rule in your Bylaws. Mixing and matching absentee votes is just going to continue to cause problems for your association.

[Guest Betty Rhode]

Are absentee ballots allowed if not mentioned in the bylaws?

[Rob Elsman]

Are absentee ballots allowed if not mentioned in the bylaws?

No. It is a fundamental principle of parliamentary law that voting is limited to members who are actually present in the one room or area where the meeting is held when the vote is taken, RONR (11th ed.), p. 423, ll. 17-20.