Noelgroup Posted September 28, 2011 at 02:11 AM Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 at 02:11 AM Not to have any of you guys say you are considering this question 'out of context' or 'in limbo' - below are the relevant lines regarding voting and majority from our condo docs.....My question is - what does 'majority' mean for us? We have an upcoming special meeting and vote to hopefully amend the Declaration. We have a Board that likes to push around that a 'non-reply' or abstention counts as a NO vote. Are they correct?The last amendment vote we had was back in 2001 - and we have a very non-informed association membership, and some of us are trying desperately to learn all we can about RONR (And yes I have the 10th RONR but not the 11th - yet!) and we want to be absolutely sure we are getting this right and what to aim for (as we are the 20% members calling the special meeting in order to make the amendments).So - to change an amendment - is it 67%+ of those voting at the meeting (present or by proxy is allowed) OR is it 67%+ of the total eligible votes of the Association (ie the total # of members in good standing?)Excerpts from Declaration and BylawsDeclaration Section 7.13"......Such regulations and use restrictions shall be binding upon all owners and occupants until and unless overrules, canceled, or modified in a regular or special meeting by the vote of owners holding a majority of the total votes in the Association."Bylaws Section 5 Majority"....the term majority shall mean those votes, owners, or other group as the context may indicate totaling more than two thirds of the total number of eligible votes, owners or other groups. ....the words 'majority vote' shall mean more than 67% of the eligible votes of the Association cast in person or by proxy. Unless otherwise provided in the Declaration or these Bylaws, all decisions shall be by majority vote."1988 amendment"Whereas the Original Declaration as amended may be further amended by an affirmative vote of the Owners to whom at least 67% of the votes in the Association are allocated;"We just want to be sure....... Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted September 28, 2011 at 02:14 AM Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 at 02:14 AM Since the association has written its own rules about "majority", you are on your own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noelgroup Posted September 28, 2011 at 02:19 AM Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 at 02:19 AM OK.....And that is how we feel - 'on our own'......so,is there anyone else out there who feels a teeny weeny bit more gracious than Mr Elsman and who wouldn't mind sharing their view?Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted September 28, 2011 at 02:21 AM Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 at 02:21 AM OK.....And that is how we feel - 'on our own'......so,is there anyone else out there who feels a teeny weeny bit more gracious than Mr Elsman and who wouldn't mind sharing their view?Thanks. My reply has more to do with the scope and purpose of this forum than my graciousness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted September 28, 2011 at 02:22 AM Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 at 02:22 AM This redefining of "majority" and "majority vote" lends itself to confusion. Also, the meaning of your bylaws cannot be deciphered without reading them in their entirety… and I doubt even that would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted September 28, 2011 at 02:32 AM Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 at 02:32 AM is there anyone else out there who feels a teeny weeny bit more gracious than Mr Elsman Yes.and who wouldn't mind sharing their view?You could take a look at RONR (11th ed.), pp. 588-591 for Some Principles of Interpretation. Notwithstanding your opinion of his graciousness, Mr. Elsman's parliamentary opinion is accurate. Any legitimate answer to your question could only come after reviewing your governing documents in their entirety. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted September 28, 2011 at 03:59 AM Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 at 03:59 AM My question is - what does 'majority' mean for us?Since your Bylaws specifically define the term in a way which is inconsistent with RONR or the English language, your association will have to interpret that definition.We have an upcoming special meeting and vote to hopefully amend the Declaration. We have a Board that likes to push around that a 'non-reply' or abstention counts as a NO vote. Are they correct?No. What they might mean, however, is that an abstention has the same effect as a no vote. That might be correct. See FAQ #6.So - to change an amendment - is it 67%+ of those voting at the meeting (present or by proxy is allowed) OR is it 67%+ of the total eligible votes of the Association (ie the total # of members in good standing?)Again, it is up to your organization to interpret its own Bylaws. The interpretation of Bylaws is beyond the scope of this forum, and they must be properly interpreted in their entirety. Your organization may wish to consult a professional parliamentarian for further assistance. I would note that the Declaration (which is in the nature of Articles of Incorporation) supersedes the Bylaws if the documents are in conflict. Since the Declaration is a legal document, you may need the assistance of a lawyer as well.You could take a look at RONR (11th ed.), pp. 588-591 for Some Principles of Interpretation.Or RONR (10th ed.), pgs. 570-573, since the poster stated he does not yet have the 11th edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted September 28, 2011 at 11:02 AM Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 at 11:02 AM Your organization may wish to consult a professional parliamentarian for further assistance.And in an effort to help..........National Association of Parliamentarians213 South Main St.Independence, MO 64050-3850Phone: 888-627-2929Fax: 816-833-3893;e-mail: hq@NAP2.orgwww.parliamentarians.orgorAmerican Institute of Parliamentarians550M Ritchie Highway #271Severna Park, MD 21146Phone: 888-664-0428Fax: 410-544-4640www.aipparl.org Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tctheatc Posted September 28, 2011 at 12:49 PM Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 at 12:49 PM wheOK.....And that is how we feel - 'on our own'......so,is there anyone else out there who feels a teeny weeny bit more gracious than Mr Elsman and who wouldn't mind sharing their view?Thanks. when I first started coming around these hare parts, I thought the replies of "they're your bylaws, you tell us!" and the like were flippant. I have come to understand they are not, nor due to a lack of grace or kindness or anything else. It's not a cop out, because it's not a question of deciphering the bylaws or an exercise in exegesis. Your assembly governs itself, and when there may be a discrpancy or disagreement about the bylaws, YOU HAVE TO DECIDE. Sometimes it may even come to a vote (and considering that your issue is how to determine a majority, that can be very sticky!). I'm not even sure I'm getting my point out clear, but it's a question of your group deciding the meaning more than it is an objective practice of someone (like a stranger here) uncovering the meaning. So you have to do it; this forum can't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted September 28, 2011 at 01:42 PM Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 at 01:42 PM Or RONR (10th ed.), pgs. 570-573, since the poster stated he does not yet have the 11th edition.The tradition of this Forum has been to quote and reference the current edition of RONR. I intend to continue that tradition. [sorry they sold out, Josh.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noelgroup Posted September 28, 2011 at 02:44 PM Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 at 02:44 PM THANK YOU all very much. I did find your replies very useful - as what I was looking for was what you all gave - that it isn't straight forward and is conflicting and should be looked at in the whole by an attorney....I appreciate getting that clarified and now we will send it to the attorney that is helping us.And thank you for the contact information also - it's these little things that show you care! Thanks Forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GcT Posted September 28, 2011 at 07:17 PM Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 at 07:17 PM Attorney? Is that what we gave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tctheatc Posted September 28, 2011 at 07:21 PM Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 at 07:21 PM post #7 suggested a lawyer's assistance might be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest GcT Posted September 28, 2011 at 08:04 PM Report Share Posted September 28, 2011 at 08:04 PM (Yes, TC, I saw that -- I perhaps should have written, "Is that the gist of what we gave?" It looks as if OP Noelgroup figures his lawyer as the go-to guy for it all, including as an expert on RONR, which he might not be.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.