Motion to Present a Motion

[JayW]

Another one from me today!

Many many years ago, our group voted to change the location of our annual convention to a specific geographic region. Although after several years we have found a site that is within the broad definition of that region, many members feel it's not close enough; however instead of pushing for a location closer to that region, they would instead like the annual convention to be held in different regions each year, so that everyone has a reasonable chance to attend every few years. (To clarify, I don't mean "convention" in any RONR way. "Event" would work just as well.)

So, my first question is, would this be a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted (change "specific location" to "rotating location"), or could it be a new main motion ("hold convention in rotating locations beginning year 201x")?

(I have a feeling I might have asked this question some time ago, but I've completely forgotten any answers I might have received.)

Next, we have a precedent set that the entire membership must vote on the location of the annual convention, so really any motion made at the annual membership meeting would be a motion to present the "location motion" to the membership for a vote. So can the mover say, "I make a motion that the following motion be sent to the membership for a vote"? (Actually since the "location motion" will be complex, it will be given in writing, although I don't think it's appropriate as a resolution (is it?).)

Our Bylaws only say when the annual meeting (which is part of the annual convention) must be held, and are silent on the location.

Thanks, as ever!

[jstackpo]

"Specific" to "rotating" would indeed be an R;ASPA motion (p.[305/293]*) since the old motion remains in force until amended or rescinded.

Your second question (if it is a question) goes way beyond RONR's rules as RONR doesn't permit absentee voting, which it sure sounds as though you are doing. You are on your own in setting up how to implement the "entire membership" vote.

[Chris Harrison]

So, my first question is, would this be a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted (change "specific location" to "rotating location"), or could it be a new main motion ("hold convention in rotating locations beginning year 201x")?

Depending on the language of the original motion it might be proper to offer a new motion if the original motion was a one-time only deal (or was for a set time which has since expired). If the motion is continuing then a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted would be needed. You will need to look at the original motion to tell for sure.

Next, we have a precedent set that the entire membership must vote on the location of the annual convention, so really any motion made at the annual membership meeting would be a motion to present the "location motion" to the membership for a vote. So can the mover say, "I make a motion that the following motion be sent to the membership for a vote"? (Actually since the "location motion" will be complex, it will be given in writing, although I don't think it's appropriate as a resolution (is it?).)

If this custom (precedent) is not located in the bylaws or some other written rule of the organization then there is no requirement that the entire membership vote on the location, that being that those who are actually at the meeting have a say in the matter (RONR/10 p. 17). If this custom (precedent) actually has been codified in some way then the entire membership would have to decide but then you would run into the issue of having to use absentee voting (unless the bylaws provides for Special Meetings or you hold an Adjourned Meeting where the entire membership attends) which is not allowed unless the bylaws specifically authorizes it (RONR/10 pp. 408-409).

[Guest Gary c Tesser]

1. It wasn't many many years ago.

2. If the Event occurs where it does in compliance with an adopted motion still in effect (fn., p. 106 in the obsolete edition that everybody except about a dozen members present has), then to change the situation, ISTM that yes, you need to amend that thing previously adopted.

3. I doubt that that "precedent" has much weight, especially if your bylaws don't explicitly allow for absentee voting.

4. Forget about a resolution (p. 32 is not unambiguous on this -- I prefer p. 38, lines 13 - 16, which, come to think of it, should be over there on p. 32. I hope they fix that in the 11th Edition, which rumor has it has been seen lurking somewhere in Florida).

[JayW]

It was 13.5 years ago. Maybe that's only many years?

I forgot to mention, sorry, that our Bylaws do allow voting by mail.

The motion at the time (1998) was "that the National [annual event] be held in a central location in the United States of America and that the vote on this motion be put to the entire membership." That motion passed, and the vote sent to the entire membership passed. The Board, in whom the "governance and management of the Club" is vested, felt "central location" was vague and consulted an attorney, who advised that the term should be considered to refer to the geographical center of the United States, then near Springfield, IL. (The geographical center has since been re-established as 35 miles from St. Louis, MO.)

Fast forward a few years to when a motion was made and passed that “the next time we consider a site change that the entire membership vote by mail ballot on the proposed site. " This motion was carried out; for the past several years we've been in Cincinnati.

At the same meeting, a motion was made to mandate the Board keep the event in the then-current (not even remotely central) location for the following year. The President at the time ruled the motion out of order, stating that a vote on the site location must be done by a ballot vote of the entire membership or by the Board of Directors; his reasoning was that "if a location change vote were done at a membership meeting, and not by mail ballot to the entire membership, it would set a precedent that would create problems later. This being that at any membership meeting, a vote to move could be taken and it would be binding." (This is how it was worded in the minutes.)

I was advised, either here or on the Bylaws forum, that the ruling set a precedent that stands until it is rescinded, but of course I'm open to other opinions on that. It is not codified anywhere, just recorded in the minutes of that meeting.

Forget about a resolution (p. 32 is not unambiguous on this -- I prefer p. 38, lines 13 - 16, which, come to think of it, should be over there on p. 32. I hope they fix that in the 11th Edition, which rumor has it has been seen lurking somewhere in Florida).

My 11th Edition was on my porch today. (Yay!) However I left my 10th Edition at work, so don't have the cross-reference. The information on page 32 in 10 is now at the top of page 33 in 11; I'm going to guess the old p. 38, lines 13-16 is around p. 39 in the 11th Edition, but can you give me a starting few words?

So if this is R;ASPA, and we do a mail ballot, how does previous notice work? Our Bylaws state that ballots must be mailed "no fewer than thirty (30) days nor more than forty-five (45) days prior to the date of tabulation." Does that count as previous notice? Or, since the info on previous notice specifically relates to meetings, does it not apply, and we must have a 2/3 majority or majority of the entire membership?

[Josh Martin]

I was advised, either here or on the Bylaws forum, that the ruling set a precedent that stands until it is rescinded...

This is correct, although precedent may not have quite the force you think it does. I believe I read that the 11th edition clarifies the role of precedent.

So if this is R;ASPA, and we do a mail ballot, how does previous notice work? Our Bylaws state that ballots must be mailed "no fewer than thirty (30) days nor more than forty-five (45) days prior to the date of tabulation." Does that count as previous notice? Or, since the info on previous notice specifically relates to meetings, does it not apply, and we must have a 2/3 majority or majority of the entire membership?

I think your organization will need to interpret its own Bylaws in this matter, and it would be best to clarify them in the future.

[David A Foulkes]

I think your organization will need to interpret its own Bylaws in this matter, and it would be best to clarify them in the future.

...... as well as in the present.

[JayW]

This is correct, although precedent may not have quite the force you think it does. I believe I read that the 11th edition clarifies the role of precedent.

Thanks -- I'll get to reading.

So if organization agrees, nothing in RONR would prohibit considering ballots mailed a month or so ahead of the voting deadline as previous notice?

[Josh Martin]

So if organization agrees, nothing in RONR would prohibit considering ballots mailed a month or so ahead of the voting deadline as previous notice?

I'm saying that your organization needs to interpret its own Bylaws.

The definitions of previous notice in RONR quite clearly do not include the mailing of ballots as a method of providing previous notice. Whether your Bylaws provide otherwise is another question entirely.