Drury1974 Posted March 10, 2012 at 12:59 AM Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 12:59 AM I have a board member that wants to amend the agenda. We have as an agenda item a recommendation to eliminate six positions and the way the agenda is currently presented, there will be six different votes. The board member wants to amend the agenda and collapse all of the cuts into one vote - instead of six separate votes.How does this work?Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trina Posted March 10, 2012 at 01:25 AM Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 01:25 AM 'When the adoption of a proposed agenda is pending, it is subject to amendment by majority vote. After an agenda has been adopted by the assembly, no change can be made in it except by a two-thirds vote, a vote of a majority of the entire membership, or unanimous consent.' (RONR 11th ed. p. 373 ll. 1-6)A precirculated agenda is not binding on the assembly at all unless/until it is adopted by the assembly.Note, however, that if the cuts are all combined into a single motion, that motion is likely to be subject to division on the demand of a single member (after all, if it started life as six separate actions, it can presumably be readily divided)... and you'd be back to six separate motions with separate votes. See Division of a Question (pp. 270-276). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drury1974 Posted March 10, 2012 at 02:13 AM Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 02:13 AM So if a motion is made to amend the agenda, and seconded, and receives a majority vote to collapse the six separate cuts into one vote, are you saying that when we then come to that part of the regular agenda, one member can "divide the question?"Please explain. Not sure how that works. Never been through something like this before.Thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted March 10, 2012 at 02:16 AM Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 02:16 AM Rather than a lot or typing (but go for it Trina, if you want to) I'll just refer you to p. 274 line 31 ff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drury1974 Posted March 10, 2012 at 02:32 AM Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 02:32 AM I don't have a copy of the book. And I'm a rookie at this. Please try to explain as easily as possible. Here's the scenario. We currently have an agenda item that includes eliminating six positions by taking taking separate votes. A board member wants to amend the agenda to collapse the six votes into one single vote. Rationale is there are some on the board who don't want to want six different times to lay off staff. They'd rather do it one vote, not six. We have three other board members who want to split the votes up so they can vote to keep some positions, eliminate others. So if the motion to amend the agenda from six votes to one vote, is there still a way to get back to say two votes - one to eliminate four positions but keep two.How would that work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted March 10, 2012 at 02:54 AM Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 02:54 AM Well, you could attempt to amend things and put the names into groups, but it all sounds like more trouble than it is worth. And likely to get you nowhere.The "Divide the Question" rule is that any ONE member can demand separate votes on each position and the chair is obliged, by RONR, to put each question separately, so no matter what you try to do about "grouping" you will probably end up voting on one position at a time anyway. So just prepare yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drury1974 Posted March 10, 2012 at 03:13 AM Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 03:13 AM So regardless if the agenda is amended or not to collapse the six cuts into one vote instead of six votes - which I think is going to happen - when we get to that part of the regular agenda, one member can say "I want to divide the question" - which means we're back to six separate votes - and the fact that the amended agenda to collapse the six different votes into one vote doesn't count anymore?Does the "Divide the question" by one member need a second and a roll call vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trina Posted March 10, 2012 at 03:35 AM Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 03:35 AM So regardless if the agenda is amended or not to collapse the six cuts into one vote instead of six votes - which I think is going to happen - when we get to that part of the regular agenda, one member can say "I want to divide the question" - which means we're back to six separate votes - and the fact that the amended agenda to collapse the six different votes into one vote doesn't count anymore?Yes.Does the "Divide the question" by one member need a second and a roll call vote?No -- in this type of situation (where several independent questions are combined into one) division truly must be done at the demand of a single member. Each motion must then receive separate consideration (i.e. debate) and vote. What you described in the first place, about six separate votes, makes me wonder if there was an intention to debate/discuss everything at once, and then have six successive votes without further debate interrupting the votes -- that would not be proper.Are the six motions truly independent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drury1974 Posted March 10, 2012 at 03:53 AM Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 03:53 AM The original intention by the board was to package all of the reductions into package, up or down. Some board members wanted to separate the package into six different votes, because they didn't wanted to keep some of the positions, but not. So the board president (me) had an agenda put together that had six different votes - one for one, a second for another building, and so on. Next thing I knew several of the board members didn't like that approach, primarily because if they were going to lay people off, they'd rather do it with one vote and get it over with, instead of casting six votes and prolonging the process. That's how the amendment to the agenda started. A member wants to amend the agenda and collapse the six votes into one. That motion will get a second. Not sure if we need a roll call at that point, or just a voice vote. Assuming the motion to amend the agenda passes, which I think it will, then it becomes a part of the regular agenda. However, what I am learning tonight, when we get to that part of the agenda, a single member can "Divide the question." Can the board president do this, or does it have to be someone else?And once we "Divide the question," we're back to six individual votes? Does the board secretary then read off each recommendation and a roll call vote follows?Thank you so much for your help with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted March 10, 2012 at 04:08 AM Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 04:08 AM Roll call votes are only required if a majority wants them.Basically, as Chairman, the whole matter is out of your hands - the members will decide how they want to do the votes, and it will take only one member to "demand a division". Then you, as Chair, put each of the six position-elimination questions on the floor for discussion and vote. One at a time. You just preside and follow the rules, and help to members to do likewise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drury1974 Posted March 10, 2012 at 04:23 AM Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 04:23 AM Excellent. Thank you very much.My guess is the other six board members have heard about the "divide the question." Would be interesting to see the look on everyone's face if someone said this.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trina Posted March 10, 2012 at 12:04 PM Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 12:04 PM The original intention by the board was to package all of the reductions into package, up or down. Some board members wanted to separate the package into six different votes, because they didn't wanted to keep some of the positions, but not. So the board president (me) had an agenda put together that had six different votes - one for one, a second for another building, and so on. Next thing I knew several of the board members didn't like that approach, primarily because if they were going to lay people off, they'd rather do it with one vote and get it over with, instead of casting six votes and prolonging the process. That's how the amendment to the agenda started. A member wants to amend the agenda and collapse the six votes into one. That motion will get a second. Not sure if we need a roll call at that point, or just a voice vote.What is the group's usual way of voting? If you usually do voice votes (or perhaps show of hands, in such a small group) you would stick with that method, unless the assembly decides otherwise. So, for example, during debate on the adoption of the agenda, someone could make a motion to take the upcoming vote as a roll call vote (or by secret ballot, or some other method...). As Mr. Stackpole said, majority decides. Usually people don't want the extra rigamarole of a roll call vote for just adopting an agenda, but the assembly is free to order that method of voting if they want to.Assuming the motion to amend the agenda passes, which I think it will, then it becomes a part of the regular agenda. However, what I am learning tonight, when we get to that part of the agenda, a single member can "Divide the question." Can the board president do this, or does it have to be someone else?Unless your organization has rules to the contrary, in a small board (I believe you mention only 7 members including yourself) the presiding officer is free to participate fully. (RONR 11th ed. p. 488 ll. 18-20; also it's worth reading the entire section on PROCEDURE IN SMALL BOARDS pp. 487-488). I know you said you don't have a copy of the book, but I'll give citations anyway, since you may decide you need one at some point. Even if you don't acquire the 'big book' just yet, I'd strongly recommend that you pick up a copy of RONR In Brief (very useful to a newish presiding officer, and easily readable).And once we "Divide the question," we're back to six individual votes? Does the board secretary then read off each recommendation and a roll call vote follows?Again, it's crucial to realize that you don't just do six individual votes. The assembly needs to process six individual motions. The chair puts each question before the assembly (you can have the secretary read the motion if it is long and complex). Then, for each motion, there is an opportunity for discussion/debate. Then, the vote. And onward to the next motion. As before, method of voting is your default method (roll call vote only if ordered by the assembly).Again, I'll recommend RONRIB -- it seems that a basic overview of the processing of motions would be helpful to you.Thank you so much for your help with this.You're very welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted March 10, 2012 at 01:32 PM Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 01:32 PM My guess is the other six board members have heard about the "divide the question."A new member's first fall through the "not" hole?Au5REB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drury1974 Posted March 10, 2012 at 03:42 PM Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 03:42 PM Here we go again. First, thank you everyone for the great help. Really appreciate it.Next question.The motion has been made, seconded, discussed, voted on, and approved to amend the agenda, so that the six individual recommendations to eliminate six different positions has been collapsed into one vote - not six different votes. When we get to this part of the agenda in the regular meeting, and I announce this is the next item on the agenda, can another board member make a motion to "divide the question" into two votes (not six)? In other words, after voting to amend the agenda and collapsing the six different recommendations into one, can we then go back later in the meeting - when we get to that particular agenda item - and try to amend this piece again, moving it from from one "all or nothing" vote to two "we like this part but not that part: votes?If the answer is "yes," this can be done, how do we do it?Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drury1974 Posted March 10, 2012 at 04:07 PM Author Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 04:07 PM In other words, can we go from six different line teams, down to one (during the amend the agenda phase), and then back to two when we get to that part of the regular agenda? I understand that when the "Divide the question" motion is made, there needs to be an individual motion made for each of the recommendations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted March 10, 2012 at 05:00 PM Report Share Posted March 10, 2012 at 05:00 PM If I was chair I would rule a motion to go from all at once (the situation that resulted from amending the agenda from one-at-a-time) to two-groups as out of order.The person proposing that had his chance to do that when the agenda amendment motion (six-motions-to-one) was under consideration. He could have proposed a (secondary) amendment to group things to go six-motions-to-his-prefered-grouping. He doesn't get two bites at that apple.Something else to be ready for... Consider that the agenda amendment motion (as possibly amended) could finally be defeated, thus leaving the agenda at six individual motions. Or, during debate on the agenda amendment, your friend points out ("threatens" is too harsh a word) that if the motions are combined, in any manner, he will simply demand that they be separated anyway. That might cause the defeat of the agenda amendment motion.Then you have no further problems.Summary advice: let sleeping dogs (cats, hyenas, whatever, all six of them) lie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drury1974 Posted March 12, 2012 at 02:28 AM Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 at 02:28 AM Our board is tomorrow night. I need your help again. Here's what I think is going to happen. There will be a motion to amend the agenda and collapse six separate votes on reducing staff into just one vote. That motion will be seconded, there will be brief discussion, and then the vote. My guess is this will pass 4-3.Immediately after the vote is taken, a board member is going to offer a secondary amendment to move the vote from one vote covering all of the staff reductions to two votes - one covering some of the reductions, and a second vote covering the rest of the reductions.What should the exact language be for the secondary amendment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted March 12, 2012 at 03:34 AM Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 at 03:34 AM PLEASE, get a copy of RONRIB (or RONR) and read up on how motions are processed...NOW, before your meeting.Once the main motion is adopted, you don't (at least in any simple fashion) turn around and start amending it (you can, but it requires a 2/3 vote to adopt such amendments, and folks are sure to be confused).It is during the discussion of the main motion ("six into one") that folks can propose amendments (like "six into two, two, and two" or "six into three and three", &c.). The amendments then get considered and voted on, one at a time - majority vote decides. Finally when all the amendment dust has settled, you vote on the main motion, as (possibly) amended. Then you are done in the cleanest manner possible.And then someone will DEMAND - quite properly - that the bundled staff reduction motions be considered one at a time anyway. So you have probably wasted your time going through all the bundling motions anyway.Good luck and let us know how things came out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drury1974 Posted March 12, 2012 at 03:36 AM Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 at 03:36 AM Thank you very much. I will get a copy of the book. I'll let you know how it goes... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drury1974 Posted March 12, 2012 at 03:46 AM Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 at 03:46 AM Quick question. What if both the "six to one" and "six to two" votes pass with the same votes, like 4 in favor, three against? How do you break the tie or which one trumps the other? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drury1974 Posted March 12, 2012 at 03:52 AM Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 at 03:52 AM I assume it's the last amendment adopted that carries the day? In other words, the vote is 4-3 to go from "six to one." Then another amendment is offered to go from "one to two." If that passes, then that's what we'll go with, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drury1974 Posted March 12, 2012 at 04:22 AM Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 at 04:22 AM "Finally when all the amendment dust has settled, you vote on the main motion, as (possibly) amended."Having trouble how this should be phrased. For example, if the secondary amendment is approved ("one vote to two vote"), and that's the end of the amendments, we then go back to main motion, as amended, and vote on it.So would I then say "We now need to vote on the main motion, as amended - which is the agenda is amended to now read on the vote on budget reductions, there will be two separate votes - one for XYZ and the second vote for ABC."Roll call vote.The agenda has been adopted and we move on.Does this work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted March 12, 2012 at 11:45 AM Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 at 11:45 AM Yup, except there is no RONR requirement for a roll call vote.As for "contending amendments" see "Fill the Blank" as a way to handle them - p. 162 ff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drury1974 Posted March 12, 2012 at 12:11 PM Author Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 at 12:11 PM I don't have the book and don't know what's on page 162. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted March 12, 2012 at 12:28 PM Report Share Posted March 12, 2012 at 12:28 PM Easy to fix that problem...http://www.robertsrules.com/#order Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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