Guest bbcrafts Posted March 23, 2012 at 07:22 PM Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 at 07:22 PM As the secretary, I wrote up the minutes. One board member read a prepared statement at the meeting and then handed it to me and said he wanted it in the minutes. I did so. Now, the the board has cherry picked the minutes to remove anything they don't want (including that prepared statement and other things - but not votes), which makes the minutes inaccurate. I am very uncomfortable signing the minutes when I don't agree with their changes. What do I do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Ed Posted March 23, 2012 at 07:57 PM Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 at 07:57 PM Sign the Minutes - the Minutes belong to the group, not to you personally.Also, only decisions are supposed to be entered into the Minutes not debate, discussion, or statements unless ordered by the group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest Posted March 23, 2012 at 11:52 PM Report Share Posted March 23, 2012 at 11:52 PM 1.) Two board members read statements and then gave me the written statement and said they wanted it in the record. Now one of them doesn't want one of their statements in the minutes! But it's on the official tape that they said they wanted them in the minutes. Also, they are now cherry picking what they want in the minutes so that they look good and the topics discussed that they don't want to show up have been taken out. 2.) In reading Roberts Rules for Dummies, it says that if the minutes are "made public" then "you need to include everything officiallly listed plus a list of speakers on each side of every question and a short summary of each speech." The Board had a heated discussion of a topic, then a member made a statement during "concerns of the members". So do I list each board member and a summary of their position on the topic, and then also the HOA member and his position too? This is all pretty confusing and I really want to do it the right way. 3.) what happens if the rest of the board don't approve my minutes? I don't want to sign my name to something I think is wrong. How do I handle that??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted March 24, 2012 at 12:45 AM Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 at 12:45 AM 1) The fact that the Board is wanting to follow RONR and only put in what was done at the meeting is a good thing. We don't see that often enough around here. See RONR pp. 468-471 for what should go in the minutes.2) First, the book you are citing from is a cheap knockoff of of Robert's Rules of Order (Newly Revised 11th Edition) and there are hundreds of them out there. Second, if you read RONR pp.475-476 you will see that even if the assembly wants to publish the proceedings that is a separate document than the minutes.3) Then don't sign them but know that you are the one in the wrong here as far as RONR is concerned and you take the risk of being removed from office or some other disciplinary action for being derelict in your duties. However, whether you sign doesn't really matter in the scheme of things since as Rev Ed pointed out the minutes belong to the assembly and not you and it is them who approves them. If I were a member of that Board the first thing I would do after you tried to thwart the will of the Board is move to suspend the rules and elect a Secretary pro tem who knows what goes in the minutes and what doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Ed Posted March 24, 2012 at 01:27 AM Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 at 01:27 AM I'd go out and get a copy of both Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, 11th Edition and Robert's Rules in Brief. There is information about both books, and links to order them on the main page of this website (robertsrules.com) if you are interested. But I would suggest you follow RONR more with regards to the Minutes in the future. Once you have your copies of the aforementioned books, you can take both copies with you to meetings. Once you start following RONR more closely, I think most issues will go away. And remember, a tape recording of what happened is not a formal record of the meeting, only the official approved Minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trina Posted March 24, 2012 at 01:28 AM Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 at 01:28 AM 3) Then don't sign them but know that you are the one in the wrong here as far as RONR is concerned and you take the risk of being removed from office or some other disciplinary action for being derelict in your duties. However, whether you sign doesn't really matter in the scheme of things since as Rev Ed pointed out the minutes belong to the assembly and not you and it is them who approves them. If I were a member of that Board the first thing I would do after you tried to thwart the will of the Board is move to suspend the rules and elect a Secretary pro tem who knows what goes in the minutes and what doesn't.However, if the deletion of material actually amounts to 'cherry picking' (in the original poster's words), that is not proper either, and it is certainly. possible that the board is also in the wrong (according to RONR) in its modification of the draft minutes. Removal of some extraneous material, while leaving other extraneous material -- with the goal of making board members 'look good' -- would definitely not be in accordance with RONR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted March 24, 2012 at 01:52 AM Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 at 01:52 AM However, if the deletion of material actually amounts to 'cherry picking' (in the original poster's words), that is not proper either, and it is certainly. possible that the board is also in the wrong (according to RONR) in its modification of the draft minutes. Removal of some extraneous material, while leaving other extraneous material -- with the goal of making board members 'look good' -- would definitely not be in accordance with RONR.That is true though if the Secretary were to put only what was proper in the minutes that would pretty much eliminate any cherry picking that might happen. Even if cherry picking did happen it is still the Board's minutes and the Secretary needs to perform his or her duties whether he or she disagrees with it or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trina Posted March 24, 2012 at 01:07 PM Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 at 01:07 PM ...2.) In reading Roberts Rules for Dummies, it says that if the minutes are "made public" then "you need to include everything officiallly listed plus a list of speakers on each side of every question and a short summary of each speech." The Board had a heated discussion of a topic, then a member made a statement during "concerns of the members". So do I list each board member and a summary of their position on the topic, and then also the HOA member and his position too? This is all pretty confusing and I really want to do it the right way....As noted, Roberts Rules for Dummies is not the same as RONR. Unless the 'for Dummies' book is your official parliamentary authority (per bylaws), it's important to be aware of that distinction.The comment you quote has some relationship to what RONR (in the previous editions(s)) said about minutes that are to be 'published' -- published minutes were supposed to contain a list of speakers on each side of a question, and an abstract of the text of each speech. The advice about 'published' minutes really referred to minutes published in a formal sense (like the bound and distributed proceedings of a conference, for example), not to minutes simply 'made public' in the way that minutes of many ordinary clubs and societies are made public. Nonetheless, this text in RONR was confusing to some, as the word 'published' was not precisely defined.In the most recent edition of RONR, this section of the text has been clarified (pp. 475-476, as previously referenced by Chris H.), and its title has also been changed for clarification: PUBLICATION OF AN ASSEMBLY'S PROCEEDINGS. It is now made quite clear that any such publication is NOT the same thing as the minutes. The minutes should be a record of what was done by the assembly, not a record of what people said along the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted March 24, 2012 at 02:22 PM Report Share Posted March 24, 2012 at 02:22 PM I find it unfortunate that Guest_bbcrafts appears to be trying to do the right thing, and clearly wants to learn better what that should be, and is being taken to task for it. As is so often exemplified by the many guest posts here, those involved in such organizations and on boards are not parliamentarians, nor are they (unfortunately) familiar enough with RONR as they should be. But that seems to be more the norm than not. The hesitation s/he shows in not wanting to sign an official document s/he feels to be mis-representative is understandable, if not laudable. It's also unfortunate that she has no recourse in this regard without putting him/herself in the tenuous position of possibly inviting disciplinary action upon him/herself for failing to fulfill the position's duties. What I would wish to make clear to Guest_bbcrafts is that, as secretary, your position is that of a laborer. Your duty is to record what happens at a meeting (the done not said parts) and present that at the next meeting for approval, with possible corrections by others being offered and adopted. Much like your tape machine, you are a recording device, and that is all. What the minutes ultimately include is not representative of your opinion (nor should it be) or recollection, but of the Board as an entity ("corrections" being approved by a majority vote or unanimous consent). Your signature is nothing more than a by-line, simply letting future assemblies know who took the minutes. It does not imply any endorsement on your part, nor verification in any way, of what is presented in the minutes as fact. The minutes are approved by the Board as a body, with the responsibility of any changes to the content shared equally by that body. As noted, they are not your minutes, they are the Board's minutes.I would also point out to Guest_bbcrafts that, at the meeting when those previous minutes are read (and changed) for approval, you will also be taking minutes again. It should be noted in these current minutes that the minutes of the previous meeting were "read and approved as corrected", thus indicating that whatever you had initially presented as the minutes for approval were changed by the Board. The inference to be drawn by this is that what you had recorded at the previous meeting was not necessarily erroneous, but only that a majority of the Board agreed to record some content in a different manner. This is part of the process, and one can only hope that the members of the Board, at least in the majority, have enough integrity to maintain the factual content. But eliminating "statements" and "discussion", along with "topics discussed", assuming no vote took place, is proper (those are the said parts) and doing so does not make the minutes "inaccurate." Retaining motions made, and the results of the votes on them (and a few other items), is where the accuracy will be found.If you're willing to forge ahead, the best advice you could probably take away is to purchase a copy of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised (RONR 11th Edition), and RONR - In Brief (2nd Edition) and read the sections on Minutes. (Read all of RONR In Brief anyway) Doing your "job" the right way, and to the best of your abilities, is the best you can aspire to. Beyond that, it's majority rule, right or wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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