Guest Quorum Question Posted July 12, 2012 at 04:32 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 at 04:32 PM FACTS: the club has by laws that require 20% of the members to make a quorum; at a general meeting the chair (president) declares a quorum; a member calls point of order that he does not believe there is a quorum; chair states he has determined a quorum exists; member appeals with a second.What happens then? Does the chair have to give evidence of a quorum? And, because a quorum is a % of members in good standing, would chair have to produce a member list and call roll? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted July 12, 2012 at 04:39 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 at 04:39 PM FACTS: the club has by laws that require 20% of the members to make a quorum; at a general meeting the chair (president) declares a quorum; a member calls point of order that he does not believe there is a quorum; chair states he has determined a quorum exists; member appeals with a second.What happens then? Does the chair have to give evidence of a quorum? And, because a quorum is a % of members in good standing, would chair have to produce a member list and call roll?A member had raised a Point of Order that there is not a quorum. The chair ruled the point not well taken. A member appealed from the decision of the chair. Now, the assembly decides the matter by a vote, requiring a majority to reverse the decision of the chair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted July 12, 2012 at 04:41 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 at 04:41 PM I take it that there was no check-in as folks came to the meeting? Too bad.I guess (I don't think RONR says as much in this context) that a quorum is assumed present - because the "responsible party" said so! - so you can do business. The first piece of that would be to ask the membership chairman, or the treasurer, to state how many members you have - paid up, &c., and in compliance with the bylaws definition of "membership". Then start counting.All of this could be a part of the "appeal" process that T. Wynn describes (because he types faster than I do!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted July 12, 2012 at 04:49 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 at 04:49 PM I take it that there was no check-in as folks came to the meeting? Too bad.I guess (I don't think RONR says as much in this context) that a quorum is assumed present - because the "responsible party" said so! - so you can do business."When the chair has called the meeting to order after finding that a quorum is present, the continued presence of a quorum is presumed unless the chair or a member notices that a quorum is no longer present." - RONR (11th ed.), p. 349, ll. 8-11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Quorum Question Posted July 12, 2012 at 04:53 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 at 04:53 PM and for the members to vote on the appeal, does the chair have to provide any evidence of a quorum? the sign in sheet (there was one) or the official membership list? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted July 12, 2012 at 05:14 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 at 05:14 PM Evidence? Sure, from whomever has any.I'd think a sign-in sheet (as long as nobody, or not too many, have left) plus some simple arithmetic, would be pretty conclusive evidence one way or another, no matter who produces it.I get the impression that there is more going on here than a determination of how many people are in the room. Care to fill us in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted July 12, 2012 at 05:23 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 at 05:23 PM I get the impression that there is more going on here than a determination of how many people are in the room. Care to fill us in?I get the same strange feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Quorum Question Posted July 12, 2012 at 07:57 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 at 07:57 PM There has been no updated member list, and despite repeated and written requests, the board has said that they are only required to put out a membership list quarterly. So how can they (or the membership) determine the number needed for a quorum without knowing how many members there are? (NOTE: there is no mention in the bylaws of when or how or how often a membership list will be published, only that the secretary must maintain it.)Without a membership list, isn't the sign in sheet worthless? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted July 12, 2012 at 08:01 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 at 08:01 PM There has been no updated member list, and despite repeated and written requests, the board has said that they are only required to put out a membership list quarterly. So how can they (or the membership) determine the number needed for a quorum without knowing how many members there are? (NOTE: there is no mention in the bylaws of when or how or how often a membership list will be published, only that the secretary must maintain it.)Without a membership list, isn't the sign in sheet worthless?The secretary should have the membership roll at every meeting. See RONR (11th ed.), p. 459. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted July 12, 2012 at 11:46 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 at 11:46 PM The secretary should have the membership roll at every meeting. See RONR (11th ed.), p. 459.Does it really say that? Surely it would be an enormous help when calling the roll "where it is required" (which it may not be). Or am I just mistaking your "should" for "shall"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted July 12, 2012 at 11:54 PM Report Share Posted July 12, 2012 at 11:54 PM Does it really say that? Surely it would be an enormous help when calling the roll "where it is required" (which it may not be). Or am I just mistaking your "should" for "shall"?It certainly doesn't say that item should be left at home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted July 13, 2012 at 12:00 AM Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 at 12:00 AM It certainly doesn't say that item should be left at home. Ah, a non-answer with a smiley. Hard not to let that go, and yet.... (you know me)....... p. 459 says that -- oh, heck, you know what it says, and it says nothing about the secretary having the membership roll at every meeting. I think it's a wonderful idea, mind you. I just don't see RONR stating that with any shall-osity and must-ness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted July 13, 2012 at 12:04 AM Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 at 12:04 AM There has been no updated member list, and despite repeated and written requests, the board has said that they are only required to put out a membership list quarterly. So how can they (or the membership) determine the number needed for a quorum without knowing how many members there are? That's a good question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted July 13, 2012 at 12:13 AM Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 at 12:13 AM it [p. 459] says nothing about the secretary having the membership roll at every meeting.Oh I don't know - in "order to call the roll where it is required" the secretary had darn well better have the "membership roll" available at every meeting. Unless he has a really good memory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted July 13, 2012 at 12:23 AM Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 at 12:23 AM . . . it says nothing about the secretary having the membership roll at every meeting.But RONR notes (on p.346) that one of the disadvantages of a quorum requirement based on a percentage of the total membership is the confusion that may result when the secretary is absent (since she is presumed to be the keeper of the roll). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted July 13, 2012 at 02:00 AM Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 at 02:00 AM and for the members to vote on the appeal, does the chair have to provide any evidence of a quorum? the sign in sheet (there was one) or the official membership list?He doesn't have to, but I imagine it would help his case on the appeal. The assembly may order the sign-in sheet or the official membership list to be provided if it so desires. Then the chair (or whoever has it) would have to.There has been no updated member list, and despite repeated and written requests, the board has said that they are only required to put out a membership list quarterly.Well, don't make it a request. Have the general membership adopt a motion ordering the board to produce the membership list. If they still refuse, see FAQ #20 and get some new board members. The rule the board is claiming is not in RONR, and apparently it's not in your rules either, so they're making it up.So how can they (or the membership) determine the number needed for a quorum without knowing how many members there are?Beats me. Sounds like a good question to ask during debate on the Appeal.Without a membership list, isn't the sign in sheet worthless?I'm not sure that it's worthless, but it sure isn't as helpful as it would be if you knew who the members were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted July 13, 2012 at 03:02 AM Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 at 03:02 AM Oh I don't know - in "order to call the roll where it is required" the secretary had darn well better have the "membership roll" available at every meeting. Unless he has a really good memory.Bingo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintCad Posted July 13, 2012 at 02:24 PM Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 at 02:24 PM Let's say the point of order on the quorum is appealed and the assembly votes that there is a quorum and later it is shown that there was not a quorum (through sign in sheets and not knowing the right number of members or something like that). Are the actions taken during the inquorate meeting invalid? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted July 13, 2012 at 03:15 PM Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 at 03:15 PM I'd say no, since, give the setup you proposed, it would be difficult - if not impossible - to produce "clear and convincing proof" that there was no quorum between the initial vote that there was a quorum present and the later check on the sign-in sheet, or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Quorum Question Posted July 13, 2012 at 04:03 PM Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 at 04:03 PM Thank you so much for all the answers! I am poring over RONR and intend to apply your good advice at next week's meeting..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted July 13, 2012 at 05:14 PM Report Share Posted July 13, 2012 at 05:14 PM You might find it easier going if you "pored over" RONRIB:RONRIB:"Roberts Rules of Order Newly Revised In Brief", Updated Second Edition (Da Capo Press, Perseus Books Group, 2011). It is a splendid summary of all the rules you will really need in all but the most exceptional situations. And only $7.50! You can read it in an evening. Get it at this link:http://www.robertsrules.com/inbrief.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Linda Posted July 16, 2012 at 06:32 PM Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 at 06:32 PM If the chair and vice chair are not at a meeting but there is a quorum, can the meeting still take place and motions be voted on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted July 16, 2012 at 07:01 PM Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 at 07:01 PM If the chair and vice chair are not at a meeting but there is a quorum, can the meeting still take place and motions be voted on?Assuming this is a regularly scheduled or properly called meeting*, yes, unless your rules say otherwise.* By this I mean that a quorum of members haven't gathered without the chair or vice chair being notified, in an attempt to end-run around them in their absence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted July 16, 2012 at 07:31 PM Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 at 07:31 PM If the chair and vice chair are not at a meeting but there is a quorum, can the meeting still take place and motions be voted on?In the absence of the chair and vice-chair, the secretary (or another member) should call the meeting to order and preside over the immediate election of a chair pro tem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted July 16, 2012 at 10:50 PM Report Share Posted July 16, 2012 at 10:50 PM Let's say the point of order on the quorum is appealed and the assembly votes that there is a quorum and later it is shown that there was not a quorum (through sign in sheets and not knowing the right number of members or something like that). Are the actions taken during the inquorate meeting invalid?If the chair feels that the new evidence constitutes "clear and convincing proof" that a quorum was not present at the time, then he may rule the business invalid, subject to appeal. See FAQ #3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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