What it means to "hold office"

[Guest Jim]

My society's bylaws state that student members "may not hold office, and may not vote".

 

This leaves open to question what, if any, official capacities students can be appointed to within the organization.

 

Subject to successfully digging up records from any discussions around the intent of this paragraph when it went into effect, and subject to a future bylaws amendment to make this clearer, the members may need to ask for a ruling which they may then need to vote on.

 

Bearing in mind that the RONR principles of interpretation are general, what would the forum offer in response to some of the following that have been argued pending the next meeting of members:

 

• whether to "hold office" means only those unique offices that represent that subset of the board of directors that are referred-to in the bylaws as upper-case "O" Officers (President, Vice President, Secretary-Treasurer etc )

 

• whether it includes all those roles or portfolios for which members vote by mail in our annual elections, which includes district-based elections which result in up to a handful of district delegates per district who each serve dually on the board as a director, as well as the vice-delegates who serve as alternates for those board meetings that a district delegate cannot attend

 

• whether it includes those unique positions that are listed in the bylaws despite that general membership does not control them all, for example the board appoints a chair (who can be a member who is not a director) and the board also hires a Chief Executive Officer

 

• whether it includes the at-large positions on our Finance Committee elected by members at the Annual General Meeting

 

Some have suggested that in the case of committees, Finance and otherwise, membership on a committee is not an office. The trouble I have with this line of reasoning is serving on a committee does involve an official capacity on behalf of the society, and in the event that committee members do not complete their terms, would it not be a "term of office" that they are failing to be complete? Moreover, if students cannot vote, isn't committee service a problem if, within the committee, decisions need to be made that require a vote?

 

I await people's responses with interest!

[Gary c Tesser]

O Great Steaming Cobnuts.

 

1. Re. (and let's call this #1, for future reference, although fat chance): "whether to "hold office" means only those unique offices that represent that subset of the board of directors that are referred-to in the bylaws as upper-case "O" Officers (President, Vice President, Secretary-Treasurer etc )"

 

I'll say somewhat confidently that it means at least those unique officers.  If I'm right, then they, at least, are.

 

2.  Re: whether it includes all those roles or portfolios for which members vote by mail in our annual elections, which includes district-based elections which result in up to a handful of district delegates per district who each serve dually on the board as a director, as well as the vice-delegates who serve as alternates for those board meetings that a district delegate cannot attend

 

I'll say that clearly those who serve dually on the board, we can say, are.  The rest are problematical; except that, if your people interpret these delegates as those RONR deals with delegates to conventions, then they are not.

 

Oh, and your questions about your vices make my brain hurt, and I haven't even looked at you people on the Internet.

 

--- Oh sorry, you meant other vices.

 

3.  The unique positions?  A toss-up.

 

4.  Committee members?  Please, just no.  Your committees are just committees, and their members are just members of the committees.

 

For the love of G-d, Montresor.  Please no.

 

5.  "Moreover, if students cannot vote, isn't committee service a problem if, within the committee, decisions need to be made that require a vote?"

 

What????

 

If the students are members of these committees, then, pretty much by all conceivable definitions, those students can vote at committee meetings on all committee matters.  I suspect I don't know what you mean here.

[Gary c Tesser]

Oh wait a minute.  I blanked completely on your first, critical sentence.

 

O Great Steaming Cobnuts.

[Gary c Tesser]

OK, here's where 6 AM comes in.

 

2.  The student's can't serve on the board of directors.  They can serve as delegates.

 

4 and 5.  How rigorous do you want to be? "Can't vote" means "can't vote."

 

But how rigorous do you want to be?  Why don't you just shoot them?

[Timothy]

Might I suggest that if you want your student "members" to serve on a committee, you should kick them out of the organization and then elect them as non-members to serve on the committee. (Assuming your bylaws don't say "non-members are not allowed to vote.") Then, they could vote at the committee meetings, but they still would not be able to vote at the general meetings.

 

I jest. It is up to your organization to decide what "can't vote" means, but I would assume that the student members would be able to do at least as much as a non-member if they were asked to serve on a committee.

[Gary c Tesser]

Might I suggest that if you want your student "members" to serve on a committee, you should kick them out of the organization and then elect them as non-members to serve on the committee. (Assuming your bylaws don't say "non-members are not allowed to vote.") Then, they could vote at the committee meetings, but they still would not be able to vote at the general meetings.

 

I jest. It is up to your organization to decide what "can't vote" means, but I would assume that the student members would be able to do at least as much as a non-member if they were asked to serve on a committee.

 

Hey. Not bad.

[Gary Novosielski]

It seems to me this is a matter of bylaws interpretation, which we don't do here.

[Gary c Tesser]

Mr Novsielski is a legendary master of ironic wit.

[Gary Novosielski]

Mr Nov[o]sielski is a legendary master of ironic wit.

 

Well, I'm just sayin'.

 

My earlier, arguably wittier, answer was going to be:  "Whatever your society determines "hold office" to mean, those guys can't do it."

[Gary c Tesser]

Well, I'm just sayin'.

 

My earlier, arguably wittier, answer was going to be:  "Whatever your society determines "hold office" to mean, those guys can't do it."

(Apologies for the typo.  I'm more accustomed to misspelling "Gary.")