Scope of Committee Recommendations

[Guest Setemu Guest]

I think I know the answer to this, but I'd like to confer with you all. It follows from a similar question I asked earlier.

If Committee A is charged with a making a recommendations on subject C, yet Committee B wants to make a recommendation regarding that same subject, even though it has no charge to make recommendations on it, is it out of order for Committee B to make such a recommendation in a report, and for the reporting member to then move that recommendation?

If such an action would be out of order, are the only avenue available to members of Committee B to either (1) one of them make that the motion during New Business or (2) see if Committee A is willing to take it up for consideration?

Thanks in advance.

[Richard Brown]

32 minutes ago, Guest Setemu Guest said:

If such an action would be out of order, are the only avenue available to members of Committee B to either (1) one of them make that the motion during New Business or (2) see if Committee A is willing to take it up for consideration?

I believe the recommendation coming from Committee B would be out of order and that your statement above correctly summarizes how it should be handled.   I suppose other actions might be in order, such as a motion to discharge Committee A from considering the matter and assigning it to Committee B.  And I suppose a motion to suspend the rules and permit Committee B to submit a proposal (motion) on the subject might also be possible.     It seems to me, though, that the  two best options are the ones you suggested.  

[Atul Kapur]

A committee considering something outside of its jurisdiction (and within the jurisdiction of another committee) is really just a bunch of folks talking.

So I would say it is out of order for Committee B to include this as part of its report. Leaving this group of individuals with the two options you mentioned. And the ones Richard thought of while I was writing this.

Edited September 20, 2018 at 05:27 PM by Atul Kapur
Added last sentence

[Guest Who's Coming to Dinner]

So if Committee B's recommendation, as opposed to a motion to adopt that recommendation, is "out of order," what should happen? Should the chair interrupt the reporting member and rule that the recommendation may not be made?

[Richard Brown]

39 minutes ago, Guest Who's Coming to Dinner said:

So if Committee B's recommendation, as opposed to a motion to adopt that recommendation, is "out of order," what should happen? Should the chair interrupt the reporting member and rule that the recommendation may not be made?

Yes, unless a member raises a point of order first.  Hopefully, though, the chairman of committee B, knowing that his committee has no business proposing such a motion, will not even attempt it.   I guess, though, that if the committee has directed him to make the motion on behalf of the committee, he might be in a bit of a pickle.  I suppose he could make a   parliamentary inquiry of the chair, asking  if a motion on that subject from Committee B would be in order.  But, the response to a parliamentary inquiry is not a ruling.  So, I suppose, even if the chair replies that it would not be in order, and  Committee B chairman  nonetheless  proceeds to make the motion on behalf of the committee as directed by the committee, the chair and other members will have been tipped off that the motion is out of order and any member (or the chair) can then raise the point of order.

[Atul Kapur]

1 hour ago, Guest Who's Coming to Dinner said:

So if Committee B's recommendation, as opposed to a motion to adopt that recommendation

I didn't draw a distinction between the recommendation and the motion because such a recommendation should be made in the form of a motion.

The section "RECOMMENDATIONS IN A REPORT" states " specific recommendations for immediate action by the parent assembly should be grouped at the end... And should generally be cast in the form of one or more proposed resolutions." (RONR 11th ed, p. 504, ll. 18-22)

[Bruce Lages]

I don't know if this question is hypothetical or not, but in any case where it is not, it seems to me that if the members of committee B feel strongly about the issue, they should pursue option 2) by asking to meet with the members of committee A at a committee A meeting and try to get their views incorporated into committee A's recommendations. This approach might be much more effective than waiting to raise alternate motions at the time committee A makes its report to the membership.

[Guest Who's Coming to Dinner]

Page 506 (ibid.) contemplates that the reporting member might not, however, move to adopt the recommendations of the report. Would it not be premature to raise a point of order when a prohibited recommendation is merely reported?

[Setemu]

Thank you, everyone. This was not a hypothetical situation, it's a politically delicate one, and I appreciate you all helping me think through it.

[Guest Zev]

The Chairman of Committee B can request permission to submit a form of minority report. If this is denied he can always gain the floor during debate and propose a substitute to  Committee A's motion. The individual members of Committee B can also join the debate and express their opinions. I do not believe that much effort should be made trying to silence either Committee B or its individual members given that they have options in trying to get their message across.  

[Bruce Lages]

1 hour ago, Guest Zev said:

The Chairman of Committee B can request permission to submit a form of minority report. If this is denied he can always gain the floor during debate and propose a substitute to  Committee A's motion. The individual members of Committee B can also join the debate and express their opinions. I do not believe that much effort should be made trying to silence either Committee B or its individual members given that they have options in trying to get their message across.  

I don't see anything in RONR that, in this particular case, would allow anyone who is not a member of committee A to submit a minority report related to committee A's recommendations. All of RONR's references to minority reports make it clear that the 'minority' referenced is a minority of the committee making its report.

[Guest Zev]

1 hour ago, Bruce Lages said:

I don't see anything in RONR that, in this particular case, would allow anyone who is not a member of committee A to submit a minority report related to committee A's recommendations. All of RONR's references to minority reports make it clear that the 'minority' referenced is a minority of the committee making its report.

I agree with every single word you said. I said "a form of minority report."

[Atul Kapur]

8 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

Chairman of Committee B can request permission to submit a form of minority report. If this is denied he can always gain the floor during debate and propose a substitute to  Committee A's motion.

Why complicate things and potentially confuse members with this "form of a minority report"? As it is going to be treated as a substitute motion, just move a substitute.

[Josh Martin]

13 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

The Chairman of Committee B can request permission to submit a form of minority report. If this is denied he can always gain the floor during debate and propose a substitute to  Committee A's motion. The individual members of Committee B can also join the debate and express their opinions. I do not believe that much effort should be made trying to silence either Committee B or its individual members given that they have options in trying to get their message across.  

 

10 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

I agree with every single word you said. I said "a form of minority report."

No, I disagree that the Chairman of a committee may request to submit “a form of minority report” regarding the report of a different committee. There is no provision in RONR for such an action.

It is of course correct that the individual members of Committee B (including the chairman) may speak in debate and offer amendments.

If the committee wishes to report on the matter as a committee, a member of Committee B could move to refer the motion to the committee.

Edited September 22, 2018 at 02:51 PM by Josh Martin

[Atul Kapur]

On 9/20/2018 at 5:42 PM, Guest Who's Coming to Dinner said:

Page 506 (ibid.) contemplates that the reporting member might not, however, move to adopt the recommendations of the report. Would it not be premature to raise a point of order when a prohibited recommendation is merely reported?

If a prohibited recommendation is "merely reported" (prohibited because it is outside the purview of Committee B), then the reporting member should be called to order for speaking to a matter that is not germane to the business at hand. (RONR, 11th ed, p. 392) The business at hand is the report of Committee B on the "certain matters or subjects" which were assigned to it. (Ibid, p. 489, l. 23)

[Guest Zev]

 

5 hours ago, Josh Martin said:

No, I disagree that the Chairman of a committee may request...

If I can gain the floor then I can make any request under the sun. The worse that can happen is for the presiding officer to put the question to the assembly and my request is denied.

1 hour ago, Atul Kapur said:

If a prohibited recommendation...

I know of no such a thing as a "prohibited recommendation."

[Josh Martin]

9 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

If I can gain the floor then I can make any request under the sun. 

No, you can’t. You can make requests which are in order at that time.

9 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

The worse that can happen is for the presiding officer to put the question to the assembly and my request is denied.

No, the worst that can happen is for the chair to rule your motion out of order.

9 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

I know of no such a thing as a "prohibited recommendation."

It is prohibited for a committee to make a recommendation outside the scope of its charge (which may be the case here), and it is also prohibited for a committee to make a recommendation on a matter which is currently under the control of another committee (both of which are the case here).

I suppose that a motion to Suspend the Rules would be sufficient, as it does not seem to me that any of these rules are unsuspendable, but the chairman of another committee may not simply request to make a report on a matter referred to another committee, especially while the report of the other committee is pending.

Committees are not free agents. They act only under the instructions and authority granted by the parent assembly or the society’s rules. Individual members of the committee (if they are also members of the assembly) are free to act as they wish, but committees cannot do whatever they please. If the society has instructed Committee A to investigate and report on this matter, it is not proper for Committee B to report on it, especially when it is not time for Committee B’s report.

11 hours ago, Atul Kapur said:

If a prohibited recommendation is "merely reported" (prohibited because it is outside the purview of Committee B), then the reporting member should be called to order for speaking to a matter that is not germane to the business at hand. (RONR, 11th ed, p. 392) The business at hand is the report of Committee B on the "certain matters or subjects" which were assigned to it. (Ibid, p. 489, l. 23)

Actually, I think the business at hand is the report of Committee A on the subjects assigned to it.

Edited September 23, 2018 at 06:02 AM by Josh Martin

[Atul Kapur]

Yes, that's correct for Guest Zev's scenario.

I was going back to the question in the original post, whether Committee B could make a recommendation in a report, and GWCtoD's post where he first mentioned the term "prohibited recommendation."

Edited September 23, 2018 at 06:24 AM by Atul Kapur
Finishing my thought

[Guest Zev]

Please review the following theoretical exchange and give me your opinion of the same.

[Chairman of Committee A, finishing his report on subject C] ... and I yield back the floor.

[Chairman of Committee B, rising] Mr. Chairman.

[Chairman] For what purpose does the gentleman rise?

[Chairman of Committee B] Mr. Chairman, Committee B has reason to believe that there are issues connected to this recommendation that may impact the work of Committee B. Is it permissible at this time to move to Suspend The Rules and present the views of Committee B as if we were presenting a minority report, or is such a motion disallowed?

 

[Josh Martin]

6 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

Please review the following theoretical exchange and give me your opinion of the same.

[Chairman of Committee A, finishing his report on subject C] ... and I yield back the floor.

[Chairman of Committee B, rising] Mr. Chairman.

[Chairman] For what purpose does the gentleman rise?

[Chairman of Committee B] Mr. Chairman, Committee B has reason to believe that there are issues connected to this recommendation that may impact the work of Committee B. Is it permissible at this time to move to Suspend The Rules and present the views of Committee B as if we were presenting a minority report, or is such a motion disallowed?

Yes, I think the chair should respond that a motion to Suspend the Rules for this purpose is in order.

[Guest Zev]

Thank you, Mr. Martin. The point is that the members of Committee B have several avenues by which they may express their point of view. In my case I would cut them some slack and let the assembly decide how to do this. I will leave to the OP to digest this thread and see what works for his group.

Quote

The president should never be technical or more strict than is necessary for the good of the meeting. Good judgment is essential; the assembly may be of such a nature, through its unfamiliarity with parliamentary usage and its peaceable disposition, that strict enforcement of the rules, instead of assisting, would greatly hinder business. But in large assemblies where there is much work to be done, and especially where there is likelihood of trouble, the only safe course is to require a strict observance of the rules.

RONR, 11th edition, page 456.

Perhaps this has something to do with this subject, perhaps not. I leave it to the reader to decide.

[Josh Martin]

2 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

Thank you, Mr. Martin. The point is that the members of Committee B have several avenues by which they may express their point of view. In my case I would cut them some slack and let the assembly decide how to do this. I will leave to the OP to digest this thread and see what works for his group.

RONR, 11th edition, page 456.

Perhaps this has something to do with this subject, perhaps not. I leave it to the reader to decide.

All I think this amounts to is that, if the chairman of Committee B makes his request without formally stating it as a motion to suspend the rules, the chairman should go ahead and state it as a motion to suspend the rules instead of being a jerk about it. I have no objection to this.