Guest Guest M Posted November 6, 2018 at 01:59 PM Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 at 01:59 PM Deacon meeting. Pastor has decided to set agenda a week beforehand without a spot for new business. What does RONR state? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted November 6, 2018 at 04:06 PM Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 at 04:06 PM If the rules in RONR apply, the agenda is not in force until approved by (a majority vote of) the assembly at the start of the meeting. When the agenda is being considered, any member may point out the omission and move to insert a heading for New Business. It may also be possible to move a new motion after the agenda is completed, and before adjournment. Stay tuned for more answers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted November 6, 2018 at 06:01 PM Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 at 06:01 PM Actually... since an "Agenda" is simply a list (at least in the context of ordinary meetings) of specific items of business to be brought up which, by virtue of being listed, become "General Orders" (RONR, page 371), "New Business" is not something that would be included in such a list in the first place. Its absence means nothing; indeed its inclusion would be an error indicating a lack of understanding of proper procedure. The standard order of business (page 26) includes a place for "New Business", after "General Orders". You can make your new motion after the agenda items are taken care of quite properly as New Business. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest M Posted November 6, 2018 at 07:05 PM Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 at 07:05 PM A motion to bring new business isn’t “allowed” by the Pastor either. Does this change anything? Also being it is a deacon meeting are the rules different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted November 6, 2018 at 08:40 PM Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 at 08:40 PM What do your bylaws say about how the agenda is set for meetings of the board of deacons? What do your bylaws say about the role of the pastor in the meeting of the board of deacons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted November 6, 2018 at 09:08 PM Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 at 09:08 PM Under RONR the moderator/chairman/presiding officer has no authority to "disallow" anything (that would be proper to bring up in the first place), particularly ahead of time. Perhaps church rules are different, but that seems pretty extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gueat M Posted November 6, 2018 at 10:33 PM Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 at 10:33 PM Believe it or not the bylaws are silent on how the deacon board meetings are run. Just business meetings are mentioned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest M Posted November 6, 2018 at 10:40 PM Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 at 10:40 PM Pastor is Charman and president of the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted November 6, 2018 at 11:34 PM Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 at 11:34 PM 56 minutes ago, Guest Gueat M said: Believe it or not the bylaws are silent on how the deacon board meetings are run. Just business meetings are mentioned. Do those bylaws even mention that there IS a Board of Deacons? How are the Deacons selected? Do the Bylaws say, somewhere, that Robert's Rules is the parliamentary authority for business meetings of all sorts? 50 minutes ago, Guest Guest M said: Pastor is Charman and president of the board. Do the bylaws give him/her the authority to disallow "New Business", unless, presumably, he/she introduces it? And, just out of idle curiosity, what variety of church, denomination, are we talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted November 6, 2018 at 11:41 PM Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 at 11:41 PM RONR states what it considers to be the standard order of business. If the bylaws state that RONR is its parliamentary authority then the six items that comprise the "Usual Order of Business in Ordinary Societies" found on page 353 is the order of business, unless the board of deacons has adopted an agenda that does not conflict with the existing order of business, page 372. The pastor trying to control what the deacons may or may not discuss is highly suspicious. I would exercise caution if I were you. Perhaps you can get him a copy of the "In Brief" book and try to steer him in a better direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted November 6, 2018 at 11:49 PM Report Share Posted November 6, 2018 at 11:49 PM 13 minutes ago, jstackpo said: And, just out of idle curiosity, what variety of church, denomination, are we talking about? I'm curious also. But I would not answer that question. It just puts the entire denomination in a bad light. Skip it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest M Posted November 7, 2018 at 12:22 AM Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 at 12:22 AM I agree with you on the last statement you made. RONR is to be used in all business meetings of the church. Deacon board is referred to as the church board in the bylaws. Potential deacons are hand selected by the Pastor approved by the board and then voted on by the church. The normal order of business (RONR, including new business) is listed in bylaws for the annual business meeting. bylaws do not state, specifically, he has the power to remove new business. I’d rather not say what denomination, but it is conservative. Thank-You all for the responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted November 7, 2018 at 02:30 AM Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 at 02:30 AM I'm good on the first three items. 1 hour ago, Guest Guest M said: The normal order of business (RONR, including new business) is listed in bylaws for the annual business meeting. You did state initially that it was the board of deacons that was meeting. I assume that the order of business mentioned in the bylaws applies to this "annual business meeting" and to the various deacon meetings equally unless you indicate otherwise. 1 hour ago, Guest Guest M said: bylaws do not state, specifically, he has the power to remove new business I cannot see how the pastor can change the order of business to an agenda-based meeting without changing the bylaws first. 1 hour ago, Guest Guest M said: I’d rather not say what denomination, but it is conservative. One of the problems specifically with churches is that the pastor sees himself as the spiritual leader, which is a proper role. However, on occasion they become confused and conflate the spiritual leadership with the leadership of business meetings. Consequently, many such pastors feel that any disagreement in business meetings is a form of challenge to their spiritual leadership and they react very negatively, sometimes extremely. Trying to convince them that a church service is not the same thing as a business meeting is sometimes near impossible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest M Posted November 7, 2018 at 02:56 AM Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 at 02:56 AM You are following along correctly. Your wisdom shows in your statements as I truly believe this is what has happened. Supoosedly, “new business” isn’t need because the agenda is set a week beforehand and a real parliamentarian agreed with this. Anything else you would like to add? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted November 7, 2018 at 03:41 AM Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 at 03:41 AM 30 minutes ago, Guest Guest M said: Your wisdom shows in your statements as I truly believe this is what has happened. I thank you for your kind words. In your case, however, you have a tall mountain to climb. You will need to muster some serious non-parliamentary skills in order to set this right. 35 minutes ago, Guest Guest M said: Supoosedly, “new business” isn’t need because the agenda is set a week beforehand and a real parliamentarian agreed with this. If the bylaws established the order of business then that is the order of business regardless of what anyone else says. Even if the bylaws had been silent on this issue but specifically mentioned RONR as its parliamentary authority then the order of business would still be the same. Are you also saying that a "real parliamentarian" agreed that doing away with the order of business and substituting an agenda was the thing to do just because the pastor said so? And what of this "one week" business? What if the pastor had said "this is the agenda" one second before the meeting? Would that have made it any more legitimate? Someone needs to get an explanation from this "real parliamentarian" and a careful examination of his bona fides is in order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted November 7, 2018 at 03:53 AM Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 at 03:53 AM (edited) 8 hours ago, Guest Guest M said: A motion to bring new business isn’t “allowed” by the Pastor either. Does this change anything? Also being it is a deacon meeting are the rules different? You don't need a motion to allow new business. You simply make motions that actually are new business. Nothing we've seen here supports the notion that the Pastor has any authority to allow or not allow classes of business. The order in RONR applies. The rules for a deacon (board) meeting, since your bylaws are silent, would be governed by the rules in RONR alone, so if there is any difference, it's in a good direction. Edited November 7, 2018 at 04:11 AM by Gary Novosielski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest M Posted November 7, 2018 at 04:08 AM Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 at 04:08 AM The parliamentarian I mentioned is definitely one of the: Professional Registered Parliamentarians That being said I would venture to say that something might have been lost in the discussion between the Pastor and the parliamentarian, or something left out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest M Posted November 7, 2018 at 04:11 AM Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 at 04:11 AM Whatever motion of “new business” isn’t allowed. Is what I am speaking of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gues M Posted November 7, 2018 at 04:12 AM Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 at 04:12 AM Whatever motion of “new business” isn’t allowed. Is what I am speaking of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted November 7, 2018 at 04:17 AM Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 at 04:17 AM I have no problem with Mr. Novosielski's statement. I suspect that the pastor is disallowing a new motion because he thinks that an agenda cannot be changed or that new motions cannot be introduced. However, I took the changing of the order of business to an agenda-type meeting arbitrarily as being improper and a much more serious issue. Nevertheless, another way of dealing with this is to make the motion, raise a Point Of Order whenever the pastor disallows the motion, and then raise an Appeal and perhaps the rest of the board of deacons will agree and overturn the pastor's ruling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest M Posted November 7, 2018 at 04:37 AM Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 at 04:37 AM Which is exactly what I did. The others must’ve been confused or didn’t see the reason. Didn’t even want to discuss it and the Pastor shut it down. I guess my option is, is to get ahold of this Parliamentarian (somehow) and see of this is correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Zev Posted November 7, 2018 at 05:17 AM Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 at 05:17 AM If this is true then it appears as though we are in different territory. One way of dealing with recalcitrant presiding officers is to move to censure him. This has no other effect than to indicate the board's displeasure. More seriously is to move to "consider the chair vacant and proceed to elect a chairman pro tempore" which requires a two-thirds vote. This removes the chairman for one meeting only and has no effect upon his administrative duties. Given that the other deacons are indisposed to back you upon a simpler matter I doubt very seriously they are going to understand and support you on a much more substantial matter such as this one. Perhaps you can have a chat with this parliamentarian and explain to him the seriousness of the situation and show him the comments on this thread and see if he can talk some sense into the pastor. If the pastor feels that the parliamentarian has some moral authority then there is a chance he may listen. If none of this works, well ... then you will have to consult the other book you have. Good luck to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest M Posted November 7, 2018 at 05:55 AM Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 at 05:55 AM Thank-You Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted November 7, 2018 at 08:50 PM Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 at 08:50 PM I am stunned at what I have been reading. RONR is crystal clear that the presiding officer has no authority to create or set a binding agenda or order of business that prohibits the introduction of new business. The assembly itself.... in this case, the Board of Deacons.... is in charge of its own meetings. Every PRP should certainly know that. I suspect there is more to this situation than we have been told or there has been a serious misunderstanding of the actual advice or opinion rendered by the parliamentarian. Unless there is a superior rule that we don't know about, the presiding officer (the Pastor) has absolutely no authority to issue such an edict. It is up to the Deacons themselves to stand up for their rights. No one can force them to vote to overturn the pastor's ruling on a point of order. Perhaps they don't know better. Perhaps they do know better but just don't want to buck the Pastor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Guest M Posted November 7, 2018 at 09:18 PM Report Share Posted November 7, 2018 at 09:18 PM My guess is that the Pastor misunderstood what the PRP said to him. To me, too, it seems very obvious that RONR is clear and without anything contrary in the bylaws. The answer is simple, “new business” should be allowed. I did not hear this from the PRP, but I was told that it was what he said to the Pastor by the pastor. That being said, I’m going to try to speak to this PRP and get the facts straight. If it’s possible to get a meeting with him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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