Proposals

[Angie N]

Hello,

I'm seeking some guidance on how to resolve a matter if this was out of order. 

A member sent a proposal in advance of an executive board meeting for discussion. The president sent the proposals to a committee to discuss and present findings. The committee voted to unanimously to reject the idea. There was no supporting information in the report for the decision. There were questions raised about lack of information. The president said she will get committee to add and the next step is the committee will present the recommendation to the general membership to vote. Is this correct? 

The member's goal was for it to be discussed and voted on. 

How are proposals presented to the members for discussion and vote? 

Are recommendations presented to membership not to take action? 

If this is not correct, is there any way to "correct" this action before it comes before the general membership? 

I thought the member should have requested the item be added to the agenda for new business. And a motion to refer to committee if the vote passed? 

Your feedback is appreciated. Any page references would be great. 

[Dan Honemann]

10 minutes ago, Angie N said:

Hello,

I'm seeking some guidance on how to resolve a matter if this was out of order. 

A member sent a proposal in advance of an executive board meeting for discussion. The president sent the proposals to a committee to discuss and present findings. The committee voted to unanimously to reject the idea. There was no supporting information in the report for the decision. There were questions raised about lack of information. The president said she will get committee to add and the next step is the committee will present the recommendation to the general membership to vote. Is this correct? 

 

Nothing in RONR requires that board members send proposals in advance of an executive board meeting for discussion, or gives a president the power to do any of the things you have described here. My guess is that your organization has adopted its own rules that control what is going on here.

 

 

[Angie N]

6 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

Nothing in RONR requires that board members send proposals in advance of an executive board meeting for discussion, or gives a president the power to do any of the things you have described here. My guess is that your organization has adopted its own rules that control what is going on here.

 

 

Nothing in our bylaws gives this permission either.  Is there a way to resolve? 

[Dan Honemann]

26 minutes ago, Angie N said:

Nothing in our bylaws gives this permission either.  Is there a way to resolve? 

Resolve what?

Apparently a lot has already happened. You say that the president sent the proposals to a committee to discuss and present findings, and apparently this committee reported (you don't say to whom) that it had voted unanimously to reject the idea, but there was no supporting information in its report for this decision. You also say that there were questions raised about this lack of information, and that the president said she will get the committee to add information and the next step is the committee will present the recommendation to the general membership for a vote. When and where did this all happen? At a board meeting? If so, apparently the board just went along with it, without anyone raising any objection.

[Angie N]

29 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

Resolve what?

Apparently a lot has already happened. You say that the president sent the proposals to a committee to discuss and present findings, and apparently this committee reported (you don't say to whom) that it had voted unanimously to reject the idea, but there was no supporting information in its report for this decision. You also say that there were questions raised about this lack of information, and that the president said she will get the committee to add information and the next step is the committee will present the recommendation to the general membership for a vote. When and where did this all happen? At a board meeting? If so, apparently the board just went along with it, without anyone raising any objection.

Resolve the fact that the proposal was never presented to the membership for discussion. That was the member's intent.  A lot has happened but does that mean nothing can be done especially if what has happened was not the member's intent?  The committee gave a report to the president who read the information at the executive board meeting. It has not been presented to the general membership yet. 

[Dan Honemann]

17 minutes ago, Angie N said:

Resolve the fact that the proposal was never presented to the membership for discussion. That was the member's intent.  A lot has happened but does that mean nothing can be done especially if what has happened was not the member's intent?  The committee gave a report to the president who read the information at the executive board meeting. It has not been presented to the general membership yet. 

Well, apparently the proposal, and the committee's report concerning it, are about to be presented to the membership at its next meeting. At that time, the proposal will be open to debate, amendment, etc., before it is voted on.

[Joshua Katz]

If you don't mind, I'd like to back up a bit.

2 hours ago, Angie N said:

A member sent a proposal in advance of an executive board meeting for discussion. The president sent the proposals to a committee to discuss and present findings. The committee voted to unanimously to reject the idea. There was no supporting information in the report for the decision. There were questions raised about lack of information. The president said she will get committee to add and the next step is the committee will present the recommendation to the general membership to vote. Is this correct? 

 

What is this person a member of - the board or the organization? If the board, the person should, unless a rule prevents it, just make the motion at a meeting. If the organization, then the person has no right, unless a rule says otherwise, to require the board to discuss something. (Neither does a board member unless someone else agrees, of course.) So either the President did something unauthorized by unilaterally committing the item to a committee (sort of), or the President did more than he needed to to give the item full consideration. Which it is depends on the circumstances. 

But then, it seems, the person actually wants to make the motion at a membership meeting. So why was it sent to the board? Regardless, the President has no authority, unless your rules say otherwise, to commit a motion on behalf of the general membership, any more than he has that authority vis a vis the board. But, similarly, does anything prevent the member from simply making the motion at a meeting? If the President rules it out of order because it is in the hands of a committee, the member would then appeal and point out that the assembly never sent it to the committee. Or maybe your rules allow for the automatic referral of certain items of business?

[Angie N]

20 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said:

If you don't mind, I'd like to back up a bit.

What is this person a member of - the board or the organization? If the board, the person should, unless a rule prevents it, just make the motion at a meeting. If the organization, then the person has no right, unless a rule says otherwise, to require the board to discuss something. (Neither does a board member unless someone else agrees, of course.) So either the President did something unauthorized by unilaterally committing the item to a committee (sort of), or the President did more than he needed to to give the item full consideration. Which it is depends on the circumstances. 

But then, it seems, the person actually wants to make the motion at a membership meeting. So why was it sent to the board? Regardless, the President has no authority, unless your rules say otherwise, to commit a motion on behalf of the general membership, any more than he has that authority vis a vis the board. But, similarly, does anything prevent the member from simply making the motion at a meeting? If the President rules it out of order because it is in the hands of a committee, the member would then appeal and point out that the assembly never sent it to the committee. Or maybe your rules allow for the automatic referral of certain items of business?

He is a member of both board and organization. It was just sent to the board to get feedback before presenting to the body. There is no requirement in our organization that the proposal be sent to the board first. Our rules do not give the President the authority  to send to committee nor do we have automatic referrals. 

Nothing is preventing the member from making a motion at a meeting. The concern is the committee's report has a recommendation about the proposal. Should the recommendation be in the committee report? Would the member make the motion in the beginning of the meeting or when there is call for new business? Would it be in order to vote on the committee's recommendation? 

[Joshua Katz]

5 minutes ago, Angie N said:

Nothing is preventing the member from making a motion at a meeting. The concern is the committee's report has a recommendation about the proposal. Should the recommendation be in the committee report? Would the member make the motion in the beginning of the meeting or when there is call for new business? Would it be in order to vote on the committee's recommendation? 

The member would make the motion as new business. Which is a bit odd, because the assembly will have already heard from the committee. 

How it got to the committee is odd, but I don't see that any rules were violated, at least none that can be subject to a point of order at this time. The committee is, at least in general, free to consider things within its purview and make recommendations on them. But it isn't required to, absent a referral from the parent assembly. If the member wanted feedback, it seems he's getting it. One possibility, perhaps, is that the motion will be out of order because it is within the authority of the committee. (If the motion has nothing to do with the committee's charge, then I suppose, without thinking it through, that a point of order could be raised to it reporting on it.) 

As for the committee's recommendation, it may or may not be in order to vote on, depending on what it is. If the recommendation is not to do something, then the committee cannot move its recommendation as a motion, and voting on it would be out of order. If it moves to do something, even if that something conflicts with the member's original motion, then that would be in order. The member should pay careful attention to what the committee reports because it could be that that motion will decide the matter, making it out of order to make the original motion later (unless moved as rescind/amend something previously adopted, or in combination with reconsider) and the better move might be to amend the committee's motion or to speak in debate on it.

But to get to the bottom point, the motion is not referred to committee, at least given what we've been told. The member is, absent other considerations, free to make the motion. The President cannot take it from the assembly's hands through unilateral action.

[Atul Kapur]

Your organization has gone a long way down the wrong route, so we have to do a bit of work to get you onto the right path. It appears the error was that the president asked the committee to consider the proposal. I did not use the word "referred" because the president does not have that authority. At the membership meeting, the member can move their motion during New Business. If the president calls on the committee to make their report, or the committee chair attempts to do so on their own, then someone should raise a Point of Order saying that the committee had no authority to consider the matter and, therefore, it would not be in order to present the committee's report.

 

This assumes that your bylaws do not give the committee the authority to consider matters on its own volition.

[Angie N]

3 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

Your organization has gone a long way down the wrong route, so we have to do a bit of work to get you onto the right path. It appears the error was that the president asked the committee to consider the proposal. I did not use the word "referred" because the president does not have that authority. At the membership meeting, the member can move their motion during New Business. If the president calls on the committee to make their report, or the committee chair attempts to do so on their own, then someone should raise a Point of Order saying that the committee had no authority to consider the matter and, therefore, it would not be in order to present the committee's report.

 

This assumes that your bylaws do not give the committee the authority to consider matters on its own volition.

Thank you! Your response is very helpful as the committee report will come before the new business. 

[Joshua Katz]

10 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

If the president calls on the committee to make their report, or the committee chair attempts to do so on their own, then someone should raise a Point of Order saying that the committee had no authority to consider the matter and, therefore, it would not be in order to present the committee's report.

Why? As a general matter, standing committees can spontaneously take up items within their charge, can't they? 

[Dan Honemann]

I still think it would be helpful to know exactly what happened at the Board meeting when, apparently, this committee initially submitted its report.

[Angie N]

9 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

I still think it would be helpful to know exactly what happened at the Board meeting when, apparently, this committee initially submitted its report.

The President said she received the report of the committee and they unanimously voted against the proposal. There were a couple questions as to why. The president said she will follow up with the committee to include in their report and present to the general membership. That's exactly what happened

[Atul Kapur]

23 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

If the president calls on the committee to make their report, or the committee chair attempts to do so on their own, then someone should raise a Point of Order saying that the committee had no authority to consider the matter and, therefore, it would not be in order to present the committee's report.

 

11 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said:

Why? As a general matter, standing committees can spontaneously take up items within their charge, can't they? 

First, we haven't been told that this was a standing committee (a reasonable assumption, but not yet verified).

Second, I don't read RONR (12th ed.) 50:8 to say that all standing committee's have that authority. If a standing committee is to have that authority, then it must be named in the bylaws or a special rule of order, but I don't see that the reverse is necessarily true. In fact, we are told in 50:9 that if a standing committee does not have that authority, then it can be created by a standing rule.

[Dan Honemann]

4 minutes ago, Angie N said:

The President said she received the report of the committee and they unanimously voted against the proposal. There were a couple questions as to why. The president said she will follow up with the committee to include in their report and present to the general membership. That's exactly what happened

And not a single member of the board raised any objection to any of this?

[Angie N]

Unfortunately no. 

[Angie N]

10 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

 

First, we haven't been told that this was a standing committee (a reasonable assumption, but not yet verified).

Second, I don't read RONR (12th ed.) 50:8 to say that all standing committee's have that authority. If a standing committee is to have that authority, then it must be named in the bylaws or a special rule of order, but I don't see that the reverse is necessarily true. In fact, we are told in 50:9 that if a standing committee does not have that authority, then it can be created by a standing rule.

Yes it was referred to a standing committee. 

[Dan Honemann]

1 minute ago, Angie N said:

Unfortunately no. 

Then maybe you need to take a look at what powers your bylaws confer upon your board.

[Atul Kapur]

16 minutes ago, Angie N said:

The President said she received the report of the committee and they unanimously voted against the proposal. There were a couple questions as to why. The president said she will follow up with the committee to include in their report and present to the general membership. That's exactly what happened

 

10 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

And not a single member of the board raised any objection to any of this?

 

5 minutes ago, Angie N said:

Unfortunately no. 

 

2 minutes ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

Then maybe you need to take a look at what powers your bylaws confer upon your board.

The facts Mr. Honemann has elicited may change my advice. I don't presume to speak for him (or presume that I am clear on the point he is making) but, if the board has the authority to refer items to this committee or to give instructions to it, then it sounds like they did that when the president said she would follow up to have the committee add information to their report.

[Angie N]

13 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

 

 

 

The facts Mr. Honemann has elicited may change my advice. I don't presume to speak for him (or presume that I am clear on the point he is making) but, if the board has the authority to refer items to this committee or to give instructions to it, then it sounds like they did that when the president said she would follow up to have the committee add information to their report.

Our bylaws does not give authority to the board refer to committees

[Gary Novosielski]

3 hours ago, Angie N said:

The President said she received the report of the committee and they unanimously voted against the proposal. There were a couple questions as to why. The president said she will follow up with the committee to include in their report and present to the general membership. That's exactly what happened

So the president, but not the board, received the report of the committee?  And the president merely paraphrased the report?  This is pretty sloppy.  It sounds like the president is presuming powers which she does not possess, in more than one instance.

[Gary Novosielski]

2 hours ago, Angie N said:

Our bylaws does not give authority to the board refer to committees

Well, they would not need explicit authority to refer to committees which report to them, but that does not give the president unilateral power to do so.  It's not clear what sort of committee this is, or to whom it reports.  If it reports to the membership, the board appears to be overstepping. 

The problem here seems to have been created by getting the board involved in the first place.

[Angie N]

On 9/7/2020 at 2:46 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

So the president, but not the board, received the report of the committee?  And the president merely paraphrased the report?  This is pretty sloppy.  It sounds like the president is presuming powers which she does not possess, in more than one instance.

That is correct! The board did not see the report. 

[Angie N]

On 9/7/2020 at 2:50 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Well, they would not need explicit authority to refer to committees which report to them, but that does not give the president unilateral power to do so.  It's not clear what sort of committee this is, or to whom it reports.  If it reports to the membership, the board appears to be overstepping. 

The problem here seems to have been created by getting the board involved in the first place.

It's a standing committee that reports to the membership.

The proposal was sent to the board for potential feedback.