Bylaws- No Minutes (Year 2)

[Dyson Fund]

Its now the second year for the current Parliamentarian. We have not received minutes from our few meetings although we continue to request them.  We can make bylaw changes annually.  Our bylaws state we are to be provided bylaws within 7 days.  As this has not happened, what are our options at the next meeting?  Can we require someone else to take notes other than the chair? As the Parliamentarian is appointed by the President, it falls on deaf ears to reinforce good practices.

[Richard Brown]

A Secretary pro tem should be selected at every meeting which the regular secretary does not attend. Even if the secretary is in attendance, you can have someone else in addition to the Secretary take notes from which minutes  can be prepared if necessary. 

For past meetings for which you have no minutes, a committee, even a committee of one person, can be appointed to create minutes to the best of their ability based on the recollections of members as to what took place at the meetings.
 

[Guest Zev]

47 minutes ago, Dyson Fund said:

Its now the second year for the current Parliamentarian.

I fail to see the significance of this statement.

47 minutes ago, Dyson Fund said:

We have not received minutes from our few meetings although we continue to request them.

Who did you request them from? What was their reason for not giving them to you?

47 minutes ago, Dyson Fund said:

We can make bylaw changes annually.

OK.

47 minutes ago, Dyson Fund said:

Our bylaws state we are to be provided bylaws within 7 days.  As this has not happened, what are our options at the next meeting?

Are you trying to say that someone has not fulfilled their duty? If this is the case then move a motion that the person required to provide this document must give an account of himself and provide an explanation.

47 minutes ago, Dyson Fund said:

Can we require someone else to take notes other than the chair?

Usually taking notes or generating the minutes is a task reserved for a secretary not the presiding officer. Does this organization have one?

47 minutes ago, Dyson Fund said:

As the Parliamentarian is appointed by the President, it falls on deaf ears to reinforce good practices.

I do not understand. What does any of this has to do with the parliamentarian? Usually the role of the parliamentarian is to counsel the presiding officer as to proper procedure. Do the bylaws assign a task other than this to the parliamentarian?

[Dyson Fund]

@Guest Zev- I failed to mention I was referencing minutes for the Bylaws committee. 

 

[Dyson Fund]

@Richard Brown Does your comment apply to the Bylaws committee meeting?  In the past when others have offered to take notes, the Parliamentarian has nixed the offer, self identified to take notes, or replied that notes are being taken though not identifying a person by name.  Whats the work around?

[Richard Brown]

7 hours ago, Dyson Fund said:

 

@Richard Brown Does your comment apply to the Bylaws committee meeting? 

No, I was referring to a general membership meeting. You did not tell us this is a committee. It makes a difference.  

Committees normally don’t have minutes the way the general membership or a board would, although a committee certainly may do so.  Normally, the committee chair makes whatever notes are necessary for the committee’s work. Someone else on the committee may do so, though.  
 

It is not normally the role of the parliamentarian to “play secretary“ or take minutes and, unless your rules provide to the contrary, he has no business giving directions or orders. The role of the parliamentarian is to advise the chair and the members, not to make rulings. That is the role of the chair, whether it is a committee, board, or general membership meeting.  If the committee wants formal minutes, it may elect a secretary for that purpose.  If the person responsible for minutes is not properly doing the job, someone else should be selected. As with any other type meeting, if the secretary or person responsible has not prepared minutes, someone else or a committee may be appointed to do so based on the recollection of members as to what was done at that meeting.

For what it’s worth, I get the impression that we still are not being given a full picture of what is happening. 
 

[Richard Brown]

@Dyson Fundyou might take note of the provisions of section 50:24 of RONR regarding committee procedures:

”50:24 Committee Procedure. In small committees, the chairman usually acts as secretary, but in large ones and many standing committees, a secretary may be chosen to keep a brief memorandum in the nature of minutes for the use of the committee.“

[Richard Brown]

@Dyson Fund RONR has several sections dealing with the parliamentarian. You might take particular note of these two sections which are likely relevant to your situation:

”47:46 Parliamentarian. The parliamentarian is a consultant, commonly a professional, who advises the president and other officers, committees, and members on matters of parliamentary procedure. The parliamentarian’s role during a meeting is purely an advisory and consultative one—since parliamentary law gives to the chair alone the power to rule on questions of order or to answer parliamentary inquiries.”

“47:55 A member of an assembly who acts as its parliamentarian has the same duty as the presiding officer to maintain a position of impartiality, and therefore does not make motions, participate in debate, or vote on any question except in the case of a ballot vote. He does not cast a deciding vote, even if his vote would affect the result, since that would interfere with the chair’s prerogative of doing so. If a member feels that he cannot properly forgo these rights in order to serve as parliamentarian, he should not accept that position. Unlike the presiding officer, the parliamentarian cannot temporarily relinquish his position in order to exercise such rights on a particular motion.”

Based on the questions you have been asking, I think it would be wise for you to obtain a copy of RONR. There are, for example, several other provisions concerning the duties and role of the parliamentarian

[Dyson Fund]

@Richard BrownThank you for the references. I am dancing around the issue. To be candid, our Parliamentarian isn't acquainted with RONRand has failed to perform in position. For political reason, no move was made to unseat the person. We are looking ahead to determine what requirements should be in place so that we are not crippled as a committee or membership.

[Dyson Fund]

 

Committees normally don’t have minutes the way the general membership or a board would, although a committee certainly may do so.  Normally, the committee chair makes whatever notes are necessary for the committee’s work. Someone else on the committee may do so, though.  

@Richard BrownOur Bylaws do require minutes for all committees.  

 

It is not normally the role of the parliamentarian to “play secretary“ or take minutes and, unless your rules provide to the contrary, he has no business giving directions or orders. The role of the parliamentarian is to advise the chair and the members, not to make rulings. That is the role of the chair, whether it is a committee, board, or general membership meeting.  If the committee wants formal minutes, it may elect a secretary for that purpose.  If the person responsible for minutes is not properly doing the job, someone else should be selected. As with any other type meeting, if the secretary or person responsible has not prepared minutes, someone else or a committee may be appointed to do so based on the recollection of members as to what was done at that meeting.

@Richard Brown Got it.  What could the wording read to elect a secretary for the bylaws committee?  We have also had shenanigans happen. For example, the committee voted to move in a direction.  A follow up meeting was called 2 weeks later by the Parliamentarian to take action on the same question. The direction approved by the committee was not supported by the President. The membership pushed back and asked for the minutes of the last meeting for reference of the question and vote- no information was provided. Since we have not been given minutes.  The Parliamentarian moves at the will of the President.

 

For what it’s worth, I get the impression that we still are not being given a full picture of what is happening. 
@Richard Brown😐

[Dyson Fund]

For what it’s worth, I get the impression that we still are not being given a full picture of what is happening. 

@Richard BrownThe President doesn't play nice in the sand box. And is more likely to throw sand in your eye in fact. You say tomato; I say tomato; The President re-imagines all rule, determines it be be a beet and pronounces it to be true. A bit extreme but not too far off. 

[Joshua Katz]

22 hours ago, Dyson Fund said:

@Richard BrownThank you for the references. I am dancing around the issue. To be candid, our Parliamentarian isn't acquainted with RONRand has failed to perform in position. For political reason, no move was made to unseat the person. We are looking ahead to determine what requirements should be in place so that we are not crippled as a committee or membership.

None of this should matter. Your parliamentarian advises the chair, that is all. You can operate perfectly well without one. And it's very hard to unseat one, because the chair is permitted to take advice from anyone he wishes to take advice from.

[Dyson Fund]

@Joshua Katz Thank you