Executive Session Debate

[Guest Marlina]

During our last school board meeting, the Chair made a motion to enter executive session and listed the reasons. It was then seconded.  The Chair asked for all those in favor to say aye. I asked if there could be discussion.  She said no and the vote was taken.  One of the reasons listed for entering executive session was not needed.  The matter was not discussed.  
Based on what I have read, discussion was allowed.  This happened recently with another matter when I asked to for discussion but was told it wasn’t allowed.  
I understand that it’s my fault for not being more knowledgeable about Robert’s Rules.  I’m working on that. My questions are: how would I ask that this be reflected the minutes?  What is a nice way to ask her to stop doing this?  No one is going to give me time to pull out my latest edition of Robert’s Rules and look up the correct procedure.   
Thank you in advance. 

[J. J.]

This would not go into the minutes.

You basically raised a parliamentary inquiry (33:3). That is not recorded in the minutes (48:4-48:5).

Edited February 3, 2022 at 03:06 AM by J. J.

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 2/2/2022 at 8:58 PM, Guest Marlina said:

During our last school board meeting, the Chair made a motion to enter executive session and listed the reasons. It was then seconded.  The Chair asked for all those in favor to say aye. I asked if there could be discussion.  She said no and the vote was taken.  One of the reasons listed for entering executive session was not needed.  The matter was not discussed.  
Based on what I have read, discussion was allowed.  This happened recently with another matter when I asked to for discussion but was told it wasn’t allowed.  
I understand that it’s my fault for not being more knowledgeable about Robert’s Rules.  I’m working on that. My questions are: how would I ask that this be reflected the minutes?  What is a nice way to ask her to stop doing this?  No one is going to give me time to pull out my latest edition of Robert’s Rules and look up the correct procedure.   
Thank you in advance. 

Are you a member of the school board?

[Guest Marlina]

Yes.  I am a member. 

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 2/3/2022 at 10:20 AM, Guest Marlina said:

Yes.  I am a member. 

In that case, you have the right to speak in debate on any debatable motion, and to make a point of order if the chair attempts to take a vote before allowing debate, as well as to appeal from the decision of the chair on any procedural ruling. All points of order and appeals, along with the chair's reasons for her ruling, are supposed to be entered in the minutes.

A motion to go into executive session is debatable and amendable. (RONR (12th ed.) 19:16-17 (p. 217))

However, in the situation you describe, it sounds like you simply asked a question which the chair answered (incorrectly), so no ruling was involved.

Instead of asking for discussion, you could rise and say, "Madam Chair, I rise to speak in favor of the motion." (or "... to speak against the motion."), and then see if the chair actually refuses to let you speak.

Or, if the chair quickly calls for a vote before allowing any discussion, you could say "Point of order!" and then when the chair asks what the point of order is, you say, "I make the point of order that debate needs to be allowed on this motion. Robert's Rules of Order states that the right to debate is a basic right of membership, and that as soon as a main motion or any other debatable motion is on the floor, it is open to debate. The chair cannot prevent debate by quickly going to a vote before the members have a chance to get the floor. If the chair is going to rule that my point is not well taken, then she needs to state the reason why debate is not allowed in this particular case, and then the secretary needs to include that in the minutes." [For reference, see RONR (12th ed.) 1:4 (p. 2), 4:3 (p. 29), 43:7 (p. 367), 23:15 (p. 239).] Although a point of order is not debatable, a brief explanation such as the above should not be objectionable.

After the chair makes a ruling, you can appeal from that decision ("I appeal from the decision of the chair"), and if the appeal is seconded, the question "Shall the decision of the chair be sustained?" is voted on by the board, and a majority vote against the question overturns the decision of the chair. (I don't think the appeal would be debatable in this case, but that question is a bit complicated and I don't think it is really your main concern at this point.)

A nice way to ask her to stop doing this is to discuss it privately before the meeting. I'm no expert on human relations, so I offer this without any guarantees: You could say something like, "There have been some motions that were made in recent meetings that I wanted to speak on, such as the motion to go into executive session and the motion regarding subject X, but I was told that we were not allowed to debate, and no rule was cited to give a reason for it. I don't have a personal dispute with you about this, but in the future, unless there is a specific rule that says debate is not allowed on a particular motion, and if debate has not been closed by a two-thirds vote or because no board member wants to speak, I'm going to insist on my rights in debate. If the chair goes directly to a vote but I feel that the members are entitled to debate the question, I intend to politely raise a point of order, and to appeal from the decision of the chair if necessary. This is my right as a member, and it does not mean that I am against the board or the chair. It's worth it to spend a few moments at the meeting to look up the rules and make sure that the members' rights are not being violated, even if the chair thinks that the question does not need to be debated. If the other members don't want to continue debate, they can always obtain the floor in debate, move the Previous Question, and adopt it by a two-thirds vote. Otherwise, every member has the right to speak in debate on every main motion."

[Gary Novosielski]

On 2/2/2022 at 8:58 PM, Guest Marlina said:

During our last school board meeting, the Chair made a motion to enter executive session and listed the reasons. It was then seconded.  The Chair asked for all those in favor to say aye. I asked if there could be discussion.  She said no and the vote was taken.  One of the reasons listed for entering executive session was not needed.  The matter was not discussed.  
Based on what I have read, discussion was allowed.  This happened recently with another matter when I asked to for discussion but was told it wasn’t allowed.  
I understand that it’s my fault for not being more knowledgeable about Robert’s Rules.  I’m working on that. My questions are: how would I ask that this be reflected the minutes?  What is a nice way to ask her to stop doing this?  No one is going to give me time to pull out my latest edition of Robert’s Rules and look up the correct procedure.   
Thank you in advance. 

Out of curiosity, were you just concerned that the chair did not ask if there was any debate, or did you, yourself, actually wish to speak on the motion to enter executive session?

[Guest Marlina]

On 2/3/2022 at 1:37 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Out of curiosity, were you just concerned that the chair did not ask if there was any debate, or did you, yourself, actually wish to speak on the motion to enter executive session?

I wished to speak on the motion to enter executive session. Two topics were included on the agenda for discussion in executive session but one item was not going to be discussed.  

[Guest Marlina]

On 2/3/2022 at 11:56 AM, Shmuel Gerber said:

In that case, you have the right to speak in debate on any debatable motion, and to make a point of order if the chair attempts to take a vote before allowing debate, as well as to appeal from the decision of the chair on any procedural ruling. All points of order and appeals, along with the chair's reasons for her ruling, are supposed to be entered in the minutes.

A motion to go into executive session is debatable and amendable. (RONR (12th ed.) 19:16-17 (p. 217))

However, in the situation you describe, it sounds like you simply asked a question which the chair answered (incorrectly), so no ruling was involved.

Instead of asking for discussion, you could rise and say, "Madam Chair, I rise to speak in favor of the motion." (or "... to speak against the motion."), and then see if the chair actually refuses to let you speak.

Or, if the chair quickly calls for a vote before allowing any discussion, you could say "Point of order!" and then when the chair asks what the point of order is, you say, "I make the point of order that debate needs to be allowed on this motion. Robert's Rules of Order states that the right to debate is a basic right of membership, and that as soon as a main motion or any other debatable motion is on the floor, it is open to debate. The chair cannot prevent debate by quickly going to a vote before the members have a chance to get the floor. If the chair is going to rule that my point is not well taken, then she needs to state the reason why debate is not allowed in this particular case, and then the secretary needs to include that in the minutes." [For reference, see RONR (12th ed.) 1:4 (p. 2), 4:3 (p. 29), 43:7 (p. 367), 23:15 (p. 239).] Although a point of order is not debatable, a brief explanation such as the above should not be objectionable.

After the chair makes a ruling, you can appeal from that decision ("I appeal from the decision of the chair"), and if the appeal is seconded, the question "Shall the decision of the chair be sustained?" is voted on by the board, and a majority vote against the question overturns the decision of the chair. (I don't think the appeal would be debatable in this case, but that question is a bit complicated and I don't think it is really your main concern at this point.)

A nice way to ask her to stop doing this is to discuss it privately before the meeting. I'm no expert on human relations, so I offer this without any guarantees: You could say something like, "There have been some motions that were made in recent meetings that I wanted to speak on, such as the motion to go into executive session and the motion regarding subject X, but I was told that we were not allowed to debate, and no rule was cited to give a reason for it. I don't have a personal dispute with you about this, but in the future, unless there is a specific rule that says debate is not allowed on a particular motion, and if debate has not been closed by a two-thirds vote or because no board member wants to speak, I'm going to insist on my rights in debate. If the chair goes directly to a vote but I feel that the members are entitled to debate the question, I intend to politely raise a point of order, and to appeal from the decision of the chair if necessary. This is my right as a member, and it does not mean that I am against the board or the chair. It's worth it to spend a few moments at the meeting to look up the rules and make sure that the members' rights are not being violated, even if the chair thinks that the question does not need to be debated. If the other members don't want to continue debate, they can always obtain the floor in debate, move the Previous Question, and adopt it by a two-thirds vote. Otherwise, every member has the right to speak in debate on every main motion."

Mr. Gerber,

   I can’t thank you enough for this response.  I will put this information to good use.  Thank you, again! 

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 2/3/2022 at 2:46 PM, Guest Marlina said:

I can’t thank you enough for this response.

Well, you could always buy some books. 🙂