Must Ballot Votes remain secret?

[Tomm]

It seems that voting by ballot is for the express purpose of keeping a Members identity and vote secret, but can the Member who casts the vote be identified?

Situation: The Bylaws state: "SECTION 5: VOTING PROCEDURES AT MEMBERSHIP MEETINGS

A. Voting shall be by ballot of Members in good standing present at any meeting of the Members. The following procedures shall apply for ballot voting:..." 

This bylaw has no provision to allow for its own suspension.

Proxy voting at the Annual Membership Meeting is allowed.

Proxy forms identify the person collecting the proxy signatures.

Proxy forms must be turned back in to the corporations administration office 10 days prior to the meeting to verify the eligibility of each proxy signature.

Question: Can the voting Members who are present and voting, and who have collected a number of proxy votes identify themselves by name on the ballot, along with their vote, so that the number of proxy's associated with that Member can be accredited?  

Seems to me to be the only way to determine an accurate outcome of the vote?

I have written each member of the board requesting that they amend the bylaw and strike out that entire Section 5 prior to the upcoming Annual Membership meeting, and allow the manner of voting to simply revert back to those specified in RONR (voice, counted/standing or even back to ballot?).

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/22/2022 at 11:56 PM, Tomm said:

It seems that voting by ballot is for the express purpose of keeping a Members identity and vote secret, but can the Member who casts the vote be identified?

Situation: The Bylaws state: "SECTION 5: VOTING PROCEDURES AT MEMBERSHIP MEETINGS

A. Voting shall be by ballot of Members in good standing present at any meeting of the Members. The following procedures shall apply for ballot voting:..." 

This bylaw has no provision to allow for its own suspension.

Proxy voting at the Annual Membership Meeting is allowed.

Proxy forms identify the person collecting the proxy signatures.

Proxy forms must be turned back in to the corporations administration office 10 days prior to the meeting to verify the eligibility of each proxy signature.

Question: Can the voting Members who are present and voting, and who have collected a number of proxy votes identify themselves by name on the ballot, along with their vote, so that the number of proxy's associated with that Member can be accredited?  

Seems to me to be the only way to determine an accurate outcome of the vote?

I have written each member of the board requesting that they amend the bylaw and strike out that entire Section 5 prior to the upcoming Annual Membership meeting, and allow the manner of voting to simply revert back to those specified in RONR (voice, counted/standing or even back to ballot?).

Part of the rules regarding ballot voting are intended to make it impossible for a voter to prove what their vote was.  They can claim that they voted a certain way, but they should receive no documentary proof.  The purpose of this is to make it difficult for voters to sell their votes.

[Richard Brown]

@Tomm, I don’t understand what it is you are asking or what it is you are trying to accomplish. Are you trying to abolish proxy voting?

Are you trying to be able to verify or prove how your individual ballot vote was counted? With secret ballots, that’s not possible. It would defeat the purpose of a secret ballot and, as Mr. Novosielski said, would open the door for people to be able to sell their votes if they could later proved how they voted on a secret ballot. 

Edited to add:  I suppose that if you want to be able to identify your ballot after it has been counted you could perhaps mark your ballot in some way with some special mark or even sign your name to it, but doing so defeats the whole purpose of a secret ballot. Again, I don’t understand what the issue is that you are addressing or what it is you’re trying to accomplish.
 

Edited August 23, 2022 at 12:28 PM by Richard Brown
Added last paragraph

[Tomm]

On 8/23/2022 at 5:24 AM, Richard Brown said:

I don’t understand what the issue is that you are addressing or what it is you’re trying to accomplish.
 

If the bylaw stating that all votes must be taken by ballot is not stricken, then the only way I see of accrediting how many proxy votes were given to a particular Member would be to first identify that Member, then have the Tellers shuffle thru the proxy forms to see, and verify how many proxy votes that Member actually holds!

Just trying to figure out a way to count all the votes. The votes of those present and the votes of those present that hold a number of proxy's! I know RONR doesn't like proxy's but if, in your experience, have seen a remedy for this situation I'm open to all suggestions! Annual Membership Meeting comes-up in November!

[Josh Martin]

On 8/22/2022 at 8:56 PM, Tomm said:

Can the voting Members who are present and voting, and who have collected a number of proxy votes identify themselves by name on the ballot, along with their vote, so that the number of proxy's associated with that Member can be accredited?

The society cannot require a signed ballot. A "ballot vote," as the term is used in RONR, refers to a secret ballot unless the organization's rules provide otherwise. Further, RONR specifically provides that if the bylaws require a ballot vote, such a rule cannot be suspended.

"When the bylaws require a vote to be taken by ballot, this requirement cannot be suspended—even by a unanimous vote—so as to take the vote by a nonsecret method." RONR (12th ed.) 45:20

With said, I suppose there is nothing preventing individual members from voluntarily signing their ballots if they choose to do so.

On 8/22/2022 at 8:56 PM, Tomm said:

Seems to me to be the only way to determine an accurate outcome of the vote?

No, I don't think this is "the only way."

Alternative methods would be ballots which are marked in some manner to indicate the number of votes that ballot is worth, or simply giving persons a number of ballots equivalent to the number of votes they have. Indeed, that might be best, since it cannot necessarily be assumed that a person will be voting all proxy votes the same way - some may have instructions from the proxy holder. The tellers committee could verify at the time of handing the member the ballot(s) how many proxy votes the member holds.

On 8/22/2022 at 10:52 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Part of the rules regarding ballot voting are intended to make it impossible for a voter to prove what their vote was.  They can claim that they voted a certain way, but they should receive no documentary proof.  The purpose of this is to make it difficult for voters to sell their votes.

So far as I am aware, while the assembly certainly cannot require members to sign a secret ballot, nothing in RONR prevents members from voluntarily doing so, or provides that such ballots are invalid.

On 8/23/2022 at 7:04 AM, Tomm said:

If the bylaw stating that all votes must be taken by ballot is not stricken, then the only way I see of accrediting how many proxy votes were given to a particular Member would be to first identify that Member, then have the Tellers shuffle thru the proxy forms to see, and verify how many proxy votes that Member actually holds!

Just trying to figure out a way to count all the votes. The votes of those present and the votes of those present that hold a number of proxy's! I know RONR doesn't like proxy's but if, in your experience, have seen a remedy for this situation I'm open to all suggestions! Annual Membership Meeting comes-up in November!

It is somewhat baffling to me that your organization has no method for this already if it has already been using proxy votes for some time. In any event, your best bet is likely to consult other organizations of a similar nature and ask them how they handle these matters.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/23/2022 at 10:41 AM, Josh Martin said:

So far as I am aware, while the assembly certainly cannot require members to sign a secret ballot, nothing in RONR prevents members from voluntarily doing so, or provides that such ballots are invalid.

That's probably the case, but then again, once cast, the voters no longer have the ballots in their possession.

In other news: In governmental elections here in Pennsylvania, mail-in ballots state that any extraneous marks other than those that actually indicate a vote, either on the ballot or on the inner secrecy envelope will invalidate the ballot.  The voter's signature appears on the back of the outer envelope.

[Josh Martin]

On 8/24/2022 at 11:24 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

In other news: In governmental elections here in Pennsylvania, mail-in ballots state that any extraneous marks other than those that actually indicate a vote, either on the ballot or on the inner secrecy envelope will invalidate the ballot.  The voter's signature appears on the back of the outer envelope.

Yes, I am aware that in public elections, there are quite often laws providing that "identifying marks" on a ballot will invalidate the ballot. Nonetheless, no such rule exists in RONR.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/24/2022 at 4:58 PM, Josh Martin said:

Yes, I am aware that in public elections, there are quite often laws providing that "identifying marks" on a ballot will invalidate the ballot. Nonetheless, no such rule exists in RONR.

I think I was clear on that point.