Motion to postpone indefinitely

[Jeffk]

I am in a condominium association in NH. There are 456 units. We run our annual meetings with Roberts Rules. The state of Nh condo act changed the way budgets are approved. It says that unless 2/3 of all units votes against the budget it passes and if there isn’t a quorum it automatically passes. The law has made it virtually impossible to vote down a budget. Would it be in order to make a motion to postpone indefinitely to kill the vote on the budget?

[Richard Brown]

On 9/7/2022 at 8:32 AM, Jeffk said:

I am in a condominium association in NH. There are 456 units. We run our annual meetings with Roberts Rules. The state of Nh condo act changed the way budgets are approved. It says that unless 2/3 of all units votes against the budget it passes and if there isn’t a quorum it automatically passes. The law has made it virtually impossible to vote down a budget. Would it be in order to make a motion to postpone indefinitely to kill the vote on the budget?

I think the answer to your question depends upon the exact wording of the statute in question and your question is  actually more of a legal question than a parliamentary one. I understand your rationale, because The adoption of a motion to postpone indefinitely has the effect of killing a proposal without a direct vote on it, but I suspect that the New Hampshire condo act might well contain a provision which would takes away that option as a means of killing a budget proposal. 

[Gary Novosielski]

I can't give you a definite legal answer either.

But it seems to me that those who wrote the law had intended to make it hard to vote down a budget, and apparently succeeded. 

I doubt that a motion to Postpone Indefinitely would be left as a gaping loophole, since technically a Yes vote on the motion is not a vote against the budget, it is a vote not to vote on the budget.  Depending on the exact wording, that might make it pass automatically.  Anyway, I haven't seen the law, and I'm not qualified to offer legal advice even if I had.  Just sayin'.

[Atul Kapur]

On 9/7/2022 at 9:32 AM, Jeffk said:

Would it be in order to make a motion to postpone indefinitely to kill the vote on the budget?

Just sticking to RONR, I think that this motion would not be in order, because it is dilatory. That is because it would appear to be meaningless as the outcome would be the same whether the motion to postpone indefinitely were adopted or defeated: the law would come into play and the budget would be an adopted (non-lawyer saying this just based on your description, so not legal advice).

Even if the motion to postpone indefinitely was adopted by a 2/3 vote, that's not the same as voting against the budget. 

Quote

§11. POSTPONE INDEFINITELY

(To drop the main motion without a direct vote on it)

11:1 Postpone Indefinitely is a motion that the assembly decline to take a position on the main question.

[underlining added for emphasis]

 

[Richard Brown]

@Jeffk, I concur with the additional comments posted by my colleagues after I made my initial response.

Just for kicks, if it’s not too long,  why don’t you post a link or quote for us the exact language of the law which supposedly provides that in order to stop the adoption Of a budget, 2/3 of all units must vote against the proposal, the failure to achieve a quorum means the budget is adopted, etc. etc. Since this is a legal issue, we probably won’t give you our opinion of the effect of the statute, but I imagine several of us would like to see it. I have heard of a similar provision in at least one other state’s  homeowner or condominium association laws and I suspect similar provisions exist in other states.

[Josh Martin]

On 9/7/2022 at 8:32 AM, Jeffk said:

I am in a condominium association in NH. There are 456 units. We run our annual meetings with Roberts Rules. The state of Nh condo act changed the way budgets are approved. It says that unless 2/3 of all units votes against the budget it passes and if there isn’t a quorum it automatically passes. The law has made it virtually impossible to vote down a budget. Would it be in order to make a motion to postpone indefinitely to kill the vote on the budget?

This is ultimately a question for an attorney familiar with NH condo association law, but I personally concur with Dr. Kapur that, as a parliamentary matter, adopting a motion to Postpone Indefinitely would not "kill the vote on the budget" if your statement that "unless 2/3 of all units votes against the budget it passes" is an accurate and complete summary of this matter. It seems to me that under such circumstances, if the motion to Postpone Indefinitely is adopted, the budget would be adopted, because there are not "2/3 of all units votes against the budget."

Edited September 7, 2022 at 06:09 PM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

I found it:

Quote

   356-B:40-c Adoption of Budgets and Special Assessments. –
I. The board of directors, at least annually, shall adopt a proposed budget for the unit owners' association for consideration by the unit owners. Not later than 30 days after adoption of a proposed budget, the board of directors shall provide to all the unit owners a summary of the budget, including any reserves, and a statement of the basis on which any reserves are calculated and funded. Simultaneously, the board shall set a date not less than 10 days or more than 60 days after providing the summary for a meeting of the unit owners to consider ratification of the budget. Unless at that meeting 2/3 of all unit owners or any larger number specified in the declaration reject the budget, the budget is ratified, whether or not a quorum is present. If a proposed budget is rejected, the budget last ratified by the unit owners continues until the unit owners ratify a subsequent budget.

I am not sure what the phrase "specified in the declaration" means. Or for that matter what "the declaration" means.

Edited September 8, 2022 at 01:06 AM by Gary Novosielski

[Atul Kapur]

I believe the declaration is a founding governing document for the condo association.

[Richard Brown]

On 9/7/2022 at 11:13 PM, Atul Kapur said:

I believe the declaration is a founding governing document for the condo association.

Yes, it is. I would say it is rather akin to the articles of incorporation of an Incorporated Organization in the grand scheme of controlling documents.

[puzzling]

To me it looks almost impossible to reject a budget 

you need at least 456 (total units ) x2/3 = 304 units to vote against the budget to defeat it, and even then the result is that the previous budget takes its place. so not likely to be a big improvement.

I guess there are also many rules to set the budget in the first place so not only the association but also its board has not a lot of wiggle room.

Edited September 8, 2022 at 12:10 PM by puzzling
typo

[Richard Brown]

On 9/8/2022 at 5:10 AM, puzzling said:

To me it looks almost impossible to reject a budget 

I agree. However, for some reason, it seems to be a growing trend. I’m curious as to just how common such a statue is in the United States (And in Canada, too, for that matter).

I do have a suspicion, though, that many homeowner type associations permit proxies either by virtue of their own governing documents or by virtue of controlling state law. This would make it somewhat easier to obtain the attendance and votes necessary to reject a budget.

I suppose it is also a reminder  to “be careful who you elect to office“.  Elections have consequences.

[puzzling]

On 9/8/2022 at 7:03 PM, Richard Brown said:

I agree. However, for some reason, it seems to be a growing trend. I’m curious as to just how common such a statue is in the United States (And in Canada, too, for that matter).

I do have a suspicion, though, that many homeowner type associations permit proxies either by virtue of their own governing documents or by virtue of controlling state law. This would make it somewhat easier to obtain the attendance and votes necessary to reject a budget.

I suppose it is also a reminder  to “be careful who you elect to office“.  Elections have consequences.

I fear it is not only the board that has a say on the budgets, I guess the board may well be regulated  by other rules and laws to make a budget they themselves don't really like or understand. 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/8/2022 at 12:13 AM, Atul Kapur said:

I believe the declaration is a founding governing document for the condo association.

I see.  Thanks.

Not that it matters much in this particular case, since the declaration can only raise the 2/3 MEM threshhold, not lower it.