Motion without second, but discussion prior to the motion

[Guest Melanie F.]

During a recent meeting, our Chair introduced an item that was due for a vote.  They then invited discussion, prior to a motion to consider the item.  When the motion was eventually made, it received no second.  I know that if a motion receives no second it is as though the motion was never made, but if it is discussed, it is treated as though there was a second.  Does discussion on an item prior to the motion being made count as being discussed.  Was the Chair out of order by inviting discussion before the motion was made?

[Drake Savory]

Why was the motion due for a vote?  Was it a motion from a previous meeting that was postponed and then brought up as a special order?  Was it really not a motion but rather a talking point to discuss in order to formulate a proper main motion? A motion made by a committee as part of a report?  Something else?  Dis the Chair recess the meeting to hold the discussion? I think we need more information on what the agenda item was exactly.

[Guest Melanie F.]

It was a budget amendment that had been the subject of countless worksessions. By consensus, in worksession, it was decided to bring it to put it on the agenda for the meeting in which the Board takes formal action.  

The meeting was not recessed for the discussion-everything happened in open session.  Chair gave background on the budget amendment (requires two readers and a public hearing), invited the board to discuss, then called for a motion.  The author of the amendment motioned to formally introduce the amendment and waive the first reading.  There was no second.  It was clear from the discussion that happened prior to the motion, that the motion had no support.  

I am the recording secretary and am trying to figure out how to record the incident, as I've never encountered this.  We use summary minutes- which would state something to the effect of "chair gave background on the purpose and function budget amendment XXX.  She invited discussion.  Board discussed (and give a one sentence summary of each POV).  After discussion, Chair called for a motion on budget amendment XXX."  

Typically, the Chair would give the public background on an item, call for a motion, then invite discussion if there was a second.  This item was done out of our typical order, which is where the question lies- clearly, if discussion had taken place after the motion, even without a second, the Board considered it and should be recorded as such.  But, since the discussion happened prior to a motion being made, does the discussion "count" as the motion being considered? 

[Richard Brown]

What happened after the motion failed to receive a second?  Did the chair nonetheless put it to a vote?  Was there further discussion after the motion to adopt the amendment and prior to the vote?  What was the outcome and what was the chair's pronouncement?  Please provide a few more details regarding exactly what happened after the motion failed to receive a second.

[Richard Brown]

On 12/19/2022 at 10:14 AM, Guest Melanie F. said:

Was the Chair out of order by inviting discussion before the motion was made?

What happened does not appear to be proper procedure, but if no objection or point of order was made, it is too late to raise it now.   Although there should normally be no discussion of a matter without first having a motion, there are exceptions.  We don't have enough information to know whether this might fall within one of the exceptions.  Regardless, it would not invalidate the subsequent adoption of the motion if it was in fact adopted.  It is a moot point now.

[Josh Martin]

On 12/19/2022 at 10:14 AM, Guest Melanie F. said:

Does discussion on an item prior to the motion being made count as being discussed. 

That is an interesting question.

I think the (improper) discussion prior to the motion being formally made may well be used for the chair's guidance in whether to state the question on the motion, as the fact that there was such robust discussion would seem to suggest that there were at least two members who wished to consider the motion.

"A second merely implies that the seconder agrees that the motion should come before the meeting and not that he necessarily favors the motion." RONR (12th ed.) 4:11

"The requirement of a second is for the chair's guidance whether to state the question on the motion, thus placing it before the assembly. Its purpose is to prevent time from being consumed by the assembly's having to dispose of a motion that only one person wants to see introduced." RONR (12th ed.) 4:12

Strictly speaking, however, if a motion has been made and no debate has yet occurred after the motion was made, I think a Point of Order could still be raised that the motion has not been seconded, and the chair must then formally proceed to ask for a second.

"In handling routine motions, less attention is paid to the requirement of a second. If the chair is certain that a motion meets with wide approval but members are slow in seconding it, he can state the question without waiting for a second. However, until debate has begun in such a case—or, if there is no debate, until the chair begins to take the vote and any member has voted—a point of order (see 23) can be raised that the motion has not been seconded; and then the chair must proceed formally and ask if there is a second. Such a point of order should not be made only for the sake of form, if it is clear that more than one member wishes to take up the motion." RONR (12th ed.) 4:13

But it's not clear from the facts presented what happened next. If the assembly proceeded to consider and adopt the motion, then even although a Point of Order may have been timely when the motion was made, it is certainly much too late to raise a Point of Order regarding this matter now.

"After debate has begun or, if there is no debate, after any member has voted, the lack of a second has become immaterial and it is too late to make a point of order that the motion has not been seconded. If a motion is considered and adopted without having been seconded—even in a case where there was no reason for the chair to overlook this requirement—the absence of a second does not affect the validity of the motion's adoption." RONR (12th ed.) 4:13

In the alternative, if the motion was declared dead for lack of a second, it appears this was handled correctly (other than the discussion prior to the motion).

On 12/19/2022 at 10:14 AM, Guest Melanie F. said:

Was the Chair out of order by inviting discussion before the motion was made?

Yes.

On 12/19/2022 at 11:17 AM, Guest Melanie F. said:

It was a budget amendment that had been the subject of countless worksessions. By consensus, in worksession, it was decided to bring it to put it on the agenda for the meeting in which the Board takes formal action.  

Strictly speaking, I do not think these facts mean the motion was "due for a vote." The motion must still be formally made and seconded. While these facts certainly seem to suggest that would most likely occur, the fact that the item has been previously discussed or that it has been placed on the agenda does not guarantee the motion will be taken up.

On 12/19/2022 at 11:17 AM, Guest Melanie F. said:

The meeting was not recessed for the discussion-everything happened in open session.  Chair gave background on the budget amendment (requires two readers and a public hearing), invited the board to discuss, then called for a motion.  The author of the amendment motioned to formally introduce the amendment and waive the first reading.  There was no second.  It was clear from the discussion that happened prior to the motion, that the motion had no support.  

Some of these facts suggest to me that this is some sort of public body. As a result, I would add that there may well be rules on this matter in the assembly's rules and/or applicable law. Such rules would take precedence over RONR.

To the extent that RONR is all that is controlling, however, if a motion is made and is not seconded because no other member wishes to consider it, the motion is dead for lack of a second.

On 12/19/2022 at 11:17 AM, Guest Melanie F. said:

I am the recording secretary and am trying to figure out how to record the incident, as I've never encountered this.  We use summary minutes- which would state something to the effect of "chair gave background on the purpose and function budget amendment XXX.  She invited discussion.  Board discussed (and give a one sentence summary of each POV).  After discussion, Chair called for a motion on budget amendment XXX."  

RONR would say something like this for the facts presented, which may need to be adapted slightly for your format.

"Member X moved budget amendment XXX. The motion died for lack of a second."

On 12/19/2022 at 11:17 AM, Guest Melanie F. said:

Typically, the Chair would give the public background on an item, call for a motion, then invite discussion if there was a second.  This item was done out of our typical order, which is where the question lies- clearly, if discussion had taken place after the motion, even without a second, the Board considered it and should be recorded as such.  But, since the discussion happened prior to a motion being made, does the discussion "count" as the motion being considered? 

Strictly speaking, I do not think it "counts" as the motion being considered in the sense that it would mean a Point of Order regarding the lack of a second would no longer be timely.

Edited December 19, 2022 at 06:06 PM by Josh Martin

[Richard Brown]

On 12/19/2022 at 12:06 PM, Josh Martin said:

RONR would say something like this for the facts presented, which may need to be adapted slightly for your format.

"Member X moved budget amendment XXX. The motion died for lack of a second."

Even if the chair put the motion to a vote without objection or a point of order and it passed and he announced that "The motion is adopted"?   I think both you and I agreed that if the motion was adopted it is too late now to complain about the lack of a second.  You even said so yourself in the comment I quoted from.  Unless I'm missing something, the OP has never told us whether the chair put the motion to a vote and whether it passed.  I believe it's a bit premature to say the minutes should say that "Member X moved budget amendment XXX.  The motion died for lack of a second".  We simply don't know what happened to the motion. I get the impression it was adopted, but we are left wondering.

If the chair put the motion to a vote and it passed and he announced that the motion passed, the minutes should say "Member X moved budged amendment XXX.  The motion was adopted".   I personally would probably add "after debate", but don't think it is absolutely necessary to state whether there was debate.  It's not clear in this case whether there actually was debate on the motion.  In fact, it appears there was not.
 

[Josh Martin]

On 12/19/2022 at 12:21 PM, Richard Brown said:

Even if the chair put the motion to a vote without objection or a point of order and it passed and he announced that "The motion is adopted"?

No, of course not. The text in question assumes the motion was declared dead for lack of a second.

On 12/19/2022 at 12:21 PM, Richard Brown said:

I believe it's a bit premature to say the minutes should say that "Member X moved budget amendment XXX.  The motion died for lack of a second".  We simply don't know what happened to the motion. I get the impression it was adopted, but we are left wondering.

While I agree that we do not know for sure what happened to the motion, I get the impression that it was not adopted, since we are told that "The author of the amendment motioned to formally introduce the amendment and waive the first reading.  There was no second.  It was clear from the discussion that happened prior to the motion, that the motion had no support."

On 12/19/2022 at 12:21 PM, Richard Brown said:

If the chair put the motion to a vote and it passed and he announced that the motion passed, the minutes should say "Member X moved budged amendment XXX.  The motion was adopted". 

I agree.

Edited December 19, 2022 at 07:30 PM by Josh Martin

[Drake Savory]

Maybe the maker of the motion asked for unanimous consent to make the motion and waive the first reading.  Thus there was no second but without objection that motion was in order.

[Gary Novosielski]

Maybe not.