Move the previous question

[Pastor Tim]

A recent meeting of our group included one item of business where delegates spent an excessively long time wordsmithing a document. Everything was in order, but I've been part of this group to recognize when we get to a point where no amendments of this wordsmithing sort will pass. Delegates were visibly frustrated and ready to vote on the matter and move on to the next item of the agenda, even as some were still waiting to be recognized to offer an amendment.

Eventually, a delegate was properly recognized to speak and said, "I call for the question."  Her intent (which seemed obvious,  and which I later confirmed) was to "move the previous question."  But she didn't say that. The Moderator thanked her, and recognized the next speaker.

Because the Moderator can call for the vote at his/her discretion, would the Moderator have been wise to either a) recognize her intent and help her phrase things properly, or b) recognize her intent and simply call for the vote? Or was he correct to simply move on to the next speaker in line?

[Dan Honemann]

On 7/7/2023 at 7:28 AM, Pastor Tim said:

A recent meeting of our group included one item of business where delegates spent an excessively long time wordsmithing a document. Everything was in order, but I've been part of this group to recognize when we get to a point where no amendments of this wordsmithing sort will pass. Delegates were visibly frustrated and ready to vote on the matter and move on to the next item of the agenda, even as some were still waiting to be recognized to offer an amendment.

Eventually, a delegate was properly recognized to speak and said, "I call for the question."  Her intent (which seemed obvious,  and which I later confirmed) was to "move the previous question."  But she didn't say that. The Moderator thanked her, and recognized the next speaker.

Because the Moderator can call for the vote at his/her discretion, would the Moderator have been wise to either a) recognize her intent and help her phrase things properly, or b) recognize her intent and simply call for the vote? Or was he correct to simply move on to the next speaker in line?

The chair should have recognized this as a motion for the Previous Question.

"A motion such as “I call for [or “call”] the question,” “I demand the previous question,” “I move to close [or “end”] debate,” or “I move we vote now” is simply a motion for the Previous Question made in nonstandard form, and it is subject to all of the rules in this section."  12 RONR, 12th ed., 16:6

At a minimum, the chair should have, as you say, "recognize her intent and help her phrase things properly".

 

 

Edited July 7, 2023 at 01:07 PM by Dan Honemann
Added the last sentence

[J. J.]

Was this seconded? 

[Gary Novosielski]

<oops>

Edited July 7, 2023 at 01:43 PM by Gary Novosielski

[Gary Novosielski]

On 7/7/2023 at 7:28 AM, Pastor Tim said:

Because the Moderator can call for the vote at his/her discretion….

Well, that's not true if the rules in RONR apply.

[Pastor Tim]

On 7/7/2023 at 9:42 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

Well, that's not true if the rules in RONR apply.

We have a conference rule that allows for this.

[Josh Martin]

On 7/7/2023 at 6:28 AM, Pastor Tim said:

Because the Moderator can call for the vote at his/her discretion

This is not correct, so far as RONR is concerned.

On 7/7/2023 at 6:28 AM, Pastor Tim said:

Because the Moderator can call for the vote at his/her discretion, would the Moderator have been wise to either a) recognize her intent and help her phrase things properly, or b) recognize her intent and simply call for the vote? Or was he correct to simply move on to the next speaker in line?

Something in between the two. I believe the Moderator should have stated the question on the motion for the Previous Question, asked if there was a second if no second had yet been made, and if the motion was seconded, put the motion for the Previous Question to a vote. If the Previous Question adopted by a 2/3 vote, the Moderator would then put the pending motion to a vote.

It was not correct to ignore the member and simply move on to the next speaker in line, particularly since "I call for the question" is perfectly acceptable terminology for moving the Previous Question.

"A motion such as “I call for [or “call”] the question,” “I demand the previous question,” “I move to close [or “end”] debate,” or “I move we vote now” is simply a motion for the Previous Question made in nonstandard form, and it is subject to all of the rules in this section. Care should be taken that failure to understand this fact does not lead to violation of members' rights of debate." RONR (12th ed.) 16:6

On 7/7/2023 at 10:52 AM, Pastor Tim said:

We have a conference rule that allows for this.

If it is indeed correct that the Moderator can simply call a vote at his discretion (which I suppose essentially allows the Moderator to unilaterally order the Previous Question), then the Moderator could have, but was not required to, state the question on the pending motion rather than going through the procedures for the Previous Question.

This is far too much power to give to the Moderator, in my opinion, but if that's the rule, the Moderator can exercise that discretion unless and until the rule is amended.

Edited July 8, 2023 at 04:14 PM by Josh Martin